Jesus: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?

veritas · Dec 24, 2007, 03:53 PM

C.S. Lewis said, "...I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him, "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Who would you say that He is?

ordinaryguy · Dec 27, 2007, 06:11 AM

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Originally Posted by veritas

"I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say.

OK, I'm sorry for digressing about the reliability of the biblical account of Jesus' life and teachings. For purposes of this discussion, I'll accept as fact that Jesus actually said every word the Bible attributes to him. As I read the account, he claimed Divine status not only for himself, but for EVERY human being. He referred to God as "My Father and your Father", an in numerous other sayings taught that we are also children of God, not fundamentally different in nature and origin than he was.

Do you believe that Jesus was "more Divine" than you yourself are? If so, why do you not accept your own Divinity?

De Maria · Dec 27, 2007, 06:46 AM

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

OK, I'm sorry for digressing about the reliability of the biblical account of Jesus' life and teachings. For purposes of this discussion, I'll accept as fact that Jesus actually said every word the Bible attributes to him. As I read the account, he claimed Divine status not only for himself, but for EVERY human being. He referred to God as "My Father and your Father", an in numerous other sayings taught that we are also children of God, not fundamentally different in nature and origin than he was.

Although Jesus did say:

John 20 17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

He also said:

John 8 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do the things that you have seen with your father.

So what is the difference?

Jesus' acknowledged purpose was to come and make us His brethren. That is how we are saved.

Matt 12 48 But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? 49 And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

And if we do the will of His Father, we come to share in the Divine Nature:

2 Peter 1 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

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Do you believe that Jesus was "more Divine" than you yourself are? If so, why do you not accept your own Divinity?

Jesus is God. He is Divine. We will share in His nature if we do as He commands.

Sincerely,

De Maria

ordinaryguy · Dec 27, 2007, 09:12 AM

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Jesus is God. He is Divine. We will share in His nature if we do as He commands.

So our Divinity is only a future and contingent possibility, and not an inherent endowment and a present reality during our life in this material world and this physical body? The quotes that you cite from Jesus himself certainly don't say this. The quote you cite that does seem to support it is attributed to the apostle Peter, not Jesus. Are there any recorded words of Jesus himself that contradict the idea that we are inherently and already Divine in origin and nature?

Choux · Dec 27, 2007, 09:52 AM

Jesus believed that the Kingdom of Heaven was on earth, and *his* teachings indicate that is the case. Never mind the teachings of Paul and others.

De Maria · Dec 27, 2007, 10:17 AM

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

So our Divinity is only a future and contingent possibility,

Our share or participation in the Divinity. We will not be divine of our own nature.

How do you define "Divine"? Sounds as though we are talking apples and oranges.

To me, there is only one Divine, that is God. I will, God willing, participate or share in His Divinity. I will not become God.

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and not an inherent endowment

Inherent in us? No. It is inherent only in Jesus because He is the Son of God.

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and a present reality

No. In this present reality we are endowed with the dignity of a Spiritual Soul which guides us to live of striving for God. But we are not presently Divine.

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during our life in this material world and this physical body? The quotes that you cite from Jesus himself certainly don't say this.

John 3:11 13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

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The quote you cite that does seem to support it is attributed to the apostle Peter, not Jesus.

It is the same message.

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Are there any recorded words of Jesus himself that contradict the idea that we are inherently and already Divine in origin and nature?

Yes.

John 8 23 And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world.

John 14 6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

veritas · Dec 27, 2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Well, the choices aren't quite so limited as you imply. For one thing, you can notice that Jesus didn't write any books, and apparently didn't encourage any of his immediate associates to do it either. Why do you suppose that is? It certainly wasn't because he didn't know how to write. My own opinion is that the reason he didn't was that, growing up in the book-worshiping culture of his place and time, he realized all too well how the written words attributed to great teachers get distorted and turned into a weapon to enforce orthodoxy and subservience to the religious hierarchy that grows up in their wake.

The truth is, we don't really know what Jesus said or claimed to be. We know what some people who wrote many years after his disappearance say that he said.

If I believed (as I suspect you do) that God inspired every word these writers wrote, and that it wasn't possible for them to be mistaken, or to remember incorrectly, or to write in the service of an agenda that they came up with later, then of course your argument would carry more weight, but I don't believe that.

So yes, I can believe that he was a great human teacher who was neither more nor less Divine in origin than you or me.

Well that's a great story for which no evidence actually exists. Even if your story is coherent, you must imply some kind of historical evidence to support it. Some evidence that is contrary to what Jesus actually said.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, am with you always, even to the end of the age. Matt 28:19

Besides, Jesus was a Jew and the Jews had an oral tradition. The Jewish religious leaders had most, if not all, of the Talmud memorized.

"Possible for them to be mistaken, or to remember incorrectly..." Possible? Is it possible that the Chinese actually invented the scientific method? Sure, but there's no evidence for it. Just because you can imagine the disciples being mistaken, or not remembering, or being part of some corrupt conspiracy, doesn't lend it credibility. You have to posit some historical evidence based on the culture and times of Jesus and his disciples. Would you go to your death for the cause of some conspiracy, or some shaky evidence?

veritas · Dec 27, 2007, 12:20 PM

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Fifty or a hundred years from now somebody could write that you ran around claiming to be a monkey. The fact that they wrote it wouldn't necessarily mean that you did it, it would just mean that they wrote something about you that wasn't true.

And people would examine the evidence for it and decide what the truth was based on the historical evidence, eyewitness testimony, other writings about it, etc. That's all anyone asks of the evidence for Jesus claiming to be God. Problem is, we are so intent on a priori dismissing it, that we don't bother to look at the historical evidence for it.

veritas · Dec 27, 2007, 12:35 PM

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Originally Posted by TheUnboundOne

Dear Veritas and Forum Members,

I know I probably won't change minds with this answer, and I know many won't like my answer, but this is AskMeHelpDesk.com, somebody asked, and it's all about answers:

There is yet a fourth possibility which Choux referred to and which C.S. Lewis didn't acknowledge--Perhaps the Jesus Christ worshipped by Christianity never existed to even be a Liar, a Lunatic, or a Lord.

Think about it: Not only did Jesus not write anything himself, as OrdinaryGuy rightly pointed out, but also a large chunk of the life of Jesus--from around age 12 to age 32--is left out of the Gospels. This leaves a lot of room for doubt about the life of Jesus as a historical being. (Albeit, singer/songwriter John Prine did do a song called "Jesus: The Missing Years."
]; -{)> )

Also, if the Jesus Christ worshipped by Christianity existed, wouldn't there be tax records to corroborate his existence, since according to the story, Mary and Joseph came to Bethlehem to pay the tax of Caesar Augustus? As pointed out in the movie 'V' for Vendetta no records are more revealing than tax records.

Moreover, if there existed a man who performed all the miracles attributed to Jesus, wouldn't non-religious historians and chroniclers of the time have corroborated the existence of the man and his miracles? A man walking on water, feeding 5000 with a few loaves and fishes, and raising the dead would certainly get my attention and be record-worthy.

Also, according to Bibical scholar Dr. Elliot Lesser, the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John weren't put to parchment until about 95 years after the time in which Jesus supposedly died. In the course of that much time, anything could be said about anybody, and any legends could be made about anybody, even non-existent persons.

So, to answer the question "Jesus: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?" , I would say:

Until somebody has concrete, biological, anthropological, historical, primary-source proof that Jesus Christ even existed, I'll have to say "None of the above."

Alright, now get the stones, pitchforks, and bundles of sticks and let the fun commence!

]; -{)>

Absolutely, I WELCOME all discussions, answers, objections, whatever!!

The problem with your assertions is that not even the radical Jesus Seminar denies that Jesus actually existed. There are no serious, New Testament scholars that deny the existence of Jesus. Zero! The Jewish historian Josephus (extra-biblical source) wrote about Him. As did the Roman historian (extra-biblical source), Tacitus. What's more, the Gospels and the writings of Paul are primary source documents!

Your standard of evidence is quite irrational. By your standard of evidence, we could pretty much deny most of history. Let's come back down to reality.

De Maria · Dec 27, 2007, 01:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Choux

Jesus believed that the Kingdom of Heaven was on earth

Jesus said we must be just to enter the Kingdom of Heaven:

Matthew 5 20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And not everyone would enter the Kingdom of Heaven:

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And He taught us to pray for the Kingdom:
Matthew 6 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

When did He teach that the Kingdom of Heaven was on earth?

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, and *his* teachings indicate that is the case. Never mind the teachings of Paul and others.

The Apostles and St Paul all taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

Galatians 1 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Matthew 28 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Sincerely,

De Maria

ordinaryguy · Dec 27, 2007, 04:47 PM

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Originally Posted by De Maria

How do you define "Divine"? Sounds as though we are talking apples and oranges.

"Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity". Neither apples nor oranges.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

To me, there is only one Divine, that is God. I will, God willing, participate or share in His Divinity. I will not become God.

You toe an orthodox line, I'm sure:
Divinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Even the Christian faith, which holds Christ to be identical to God, distinguishes between God the father and Christ the begotten son.[4]

I'm more inclined to the following:

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There are, however, certain esoteric and mystical schools of thought, present in many faiths — Sufis in Islam, Gnostics in Christianity, Advaitan Hindus, Zen Buddhists, as well as several non-specific perspectives developed in new age philosophy — which hold that all humans are in essence divine, or unified with the Divine in a non-trivial way.

Nothing in the Biblical account persuades me that Jesus taught or believed otherwise.



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