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Hey Guys!
I was wondering about how yall thought about prayers in school. this topic is very important to me, and i would love some other's opinions on it! please, everyone, reply with your thoughts!
thanks so much!
Are you saying the minority is superior to the majority?
No.
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Shutting out Christian thought is simply censorship.
But no one is trying to shut out Christian thought.
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In fact, abortion is on the retreat.
No one likes abortion. But I doubt that a rape victim is going to change her mind after viewing the ultra-sound of a 3 day old embryo.
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And its wrong. There is no evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
How intolerant!
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Yet thousands of people witnessed Christ and His miracles and four eyewitnesses wrote about it in their testimonies of His life, the Gospels.
This is very wrong! There was not a single eyewitness who wrote anything down! In fact, no accounts of Jesus' life were written down until YEARS after his death. You should try reading some real books written by real historians, instead of believing everything you hear.
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Correct. And the ideology that Christians should be censored is a dangerous ideology indeed.
Again, no one is saying that Christians should be censored.
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1. This country is founded on respect for the individual.
Right. This includes ALL individuals. Including those that don't pray, or believe in your god.
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You should have the right to have your child taught whatever you consider is real science.
This is what I think is a REALLY dangerous thought by you. I am not a scientist, mathemetician, writer, or physicist. I (nor you), can know what is best for our kids to be taught regarding these subjects. I can teach my kids values. You can teach your kids to pray if you'd like. But you should have no say in what they learn about real world science or math! At least not if you want them to be competent adults competing in the real world.
Here's the thing... People like you want our children taught what YOU think is right. The problem is, you don't know anything about these subjects! As it is, we are losing our once held superiority in the areas of science, math, and physics. And it's only going to get worse if people like you have their way and start dumbing down this country by teaching things like creationism alongside real science.
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I'm Catholic.
I was born Catholic as well.
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THEN WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID THAT PARENTS SHOULD VOTE ON THE MATTER!!!?
I've already explained why. It's because the majority of parents are not experts in the required fields of study where accurate knowledge will be necessary for our kids to be competitive by the time they're adults.
If you had your way, the next generation of Americans will still be thinking in primitive 2000 year old terms believing that the earth is only 10,000 years old, while other countries make huge strides in molecular biology, curing diseases, and other sciences. The America you want will be left in the rest of the civilized world's dust.
De Maria,
One thing I have noticed is that you seem to no sympathy or empathy for others who are different from you, in fact you seem to derive some pleasure in antagonizing others.
The only thing I'm guilty of is defending myself from your attacks on my character. See Messages #105 and 107 on this thread.
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That is not the case with all my christian friends I have around me.
As I said before, you must be used to Christian friends who let you insult them, twist their words and otherwise walk all over them. As for me, I reserve the right to face my accuser and have them prove their accusations.
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Also you mention that you were once an atheist and during that period you did awful deeds, you then blame those deeds on the fact that you were an atheist. I have concluded that your views most certainly do not represent the views of christians but of those of a tortured soul.
Please define tortured soul. As I don't feel tortured, I don't think I fit that category. But I don't know what it means.
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I hope you find some sort of internal peace, I mostly hope this for your children.
It is one of the greatest things about being Christian since I converted. Yes, I do feel the peace that only Christ can give.
But I wonder, you and your friends always accuse me of antagonizing others. Yet, you don't acknowledge the insults first directed at me. Do you selectively read the messages or what?
Did you comment to lobrobster about accusing me of being biased? In other words, prayers that YOU agree with, right? I'd expect you to at least make a token effo rt to hide your bias.
Or after twisting the meaning of my words to pretend I want to run the country: Yet you still seem to think you run the country and our public schools. The last election should've quelled any such notion for you.
Or after insinuating that Christans don't want children to learn real science: But the rest of us, want our kids learning REAL science,
So please explain your obvious partiality here. Others can be rude and unkind towards me and you turn a deaf ear. But when I respond in kind, you and other nonChristians on this forum, whom I've also confronted on the issue, get "their panties in a bind". (To use a euphemism that someone used on me.)
So thanks for the kind thoughts but maybe you should scrutinize your friends words and your own more closely. It is you who tries to stigmatize people without a tinge of conscience isn't it? Messages #105 and 107.
The topic of this thread is to gather people's opinions, not argue constitutional rights. It appears to me that we know what everyone's opinion on this matter is. Synnen, is entitled to her opinion. Excon, NK, Lobrobster are entitled to theirs. DeMaria is entitled to his. In reading through this thread, I actually have not seen DeMaria trying to convince anyone he is right. He has simply stated his opinion and explained why he feels the way he does. Why are people trying to convince him to change his point of view? Seems like you are all going in circles, and in doing so, frustrating yourselves. MY personal opinion is that organized prayer in public schools in the U.S. will never happen. DeMaria is entitled to hope that it will, and he is entitled to attempt to change it through either voting in like minded candidates, or filing a lawsuit. But, I will be waving to him, offering him a hot cup of coffee, a donut and a handshake, from the other side of the fence arguing against it. To each his own. No amount of logical discourse on a web site will change someone who is set in their personal convictions.
Glad we agree. Then you believe in the democratic practice of voting to decide issues?
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No.
Glad we agree that it is unfair for the minority to tell the majority what to do.
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But no one is trying to shut out Christian thought.
I thought you said, This is what prevented the "majority" from getting creationism taught alongside real science in public classrooms. A near catastrophe avoided because our judicial system worked.
That sounds as though you believe that presenting Christian thought (creationism) in the classroom would be a catastrophe. In other words, that sounds as though you want to shut out Christian thought. So please explain yourself.
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No one likes abortion. I doubt a rape victim is going to change her mind after viewing the ultra-sound of a 3 day old embryo.
But rape is permitted up to the day of birth in this country.
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How intolerant!
Must everything be tolerated?
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This is very wrong! There was not a single eyewitness who wrote anything down! In fact, no eyewitness account of Jesus was written down until YEARS after his death. You should try reading some real books written by real historians, instead of believing everything you hear.
Anytime you want to start a thread on the evidence for Christ vs the evidence for the spaghetti monster, I'm ready.
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Again, no one is saying that Christians should be censored.
I believe I've proved in previous messages that that is exactly what is going on.
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Right. This includes ALL individuals. Including those that don't pray, or believe in your god.
Correct.
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.... But you should have no say in what they learn about real world science or math! ....
As you know I disagree with that thought entirely. I just want to highlight for other people to read and make up their own minds whether a parent has a say in everything their children learns or not.
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Here's the thing... People like you want our children taught what YOU think is right.
Is that what I said, or is that what you are putting in my mouth. If that is what I said, provide the evidence that I said it.
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The problem is, you don't know anything about these subjects!
Maybe, maybe not. But that is not the question at hand is it. We are talking about prayer in school. Not about what I know or don't know.
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As it is, we are losing our once held superiority in the areas of science, math, and physics. And it's only going to get worse if people like you have their way and start dumbing down this country by teaching things like creationism alongside real science.
Again, you have proved that you want Christian thought SHUT OUT of the classroom.
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I was born Catholic as well.
Something we have in common. I just mentioned it because I thought you were mistaking me for a Fundie.
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I've already explained why. It's because the majority of parents are not experts in the required fields of study where accurate knowledge will be necessary for our kids to be competitive by the time they're adults.
But the parents don't teach the subjects in Public School. So what is your point.
In addition, the students taught by their parents at home are far ahead of public and private school children in every category on the SAT's and ACTs and every other test they have been subjected to.
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If you had your way, the next generation of Americans will still be thinking in primitive 2000 year old terms believing that the earth is only 10,000 years old, while other countries make huge strides in molecular biology, curing diseases, and other sciences. The America you want will be left in the rest of the civilized world's dust.
All you have to do is provide the statements I made which lead you to these outrageous ideas. Like the others before you, you are practicing a form of fallacious argument called "straw man". Obviously, no one wants such a world as you ascribe to me. So if you can make people believe that is what I want, well, you've won the argument.
I view this has nothing more than a healthy (and important) debate. Attacks (at least the ones made by me), are not meant to be personal. I also would be glad to offer Demaria a cup of coffee from the sidelines, while opposing his views. It's great that he has a right to express them, vote for them, and even litigate for them.
However, I have to say that if we seem to be going in circles I'm afraid some of that is due to the circular logic that gets espoused on here. Cheers!
I concur lobrobster. And, it certainly does appear to be circular logic. If you all enjoy debating an issue that won't sway anyone, who am I to interfere? I just noticed that he is being placed in a position where he has to not only defend his opinion, but defend himself from people assuming too much and stating he expressed more than he has. But, if he is enjoying himself and wishes to continue, that is his option. As it is yours.
I thought you said, This is what prevented the "majority" from getting creationism taught alongside real science in public classrooms. A near catastrophe avoided because our judicial system worked.
That sounds as though you believe that presenting Christian thought (creationism) in the classroom would be a catastrophe. In other words, that sounds as though you want to shut out Christian thought. So please explain yourself.
You can think, say, or worship whatever you'd like. No one is trying to censor you. But public classrooms are for teaching REAL science and learning about what is definitely TRUE! If you want to teach unfouded beliefs, that's what churches are for (most which are tax-exempt by the way). Teach anything you want in your church. You can teach your kids that the earth is only 10,000 years old, that there was a man on earth before a women ever existed, or that Noah brought dinosaurs on the ark, for all I care. But these teachings don't belong in a public classroom! Why? Because they are unfounded by any evidence or real scientific standard and are simply a matter of certain people's religious faith! My kid doesn't have to learn that. Just as your kid shouldn't have to learn scientology.
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But rape is permitted up to the day of birth in this country.
I don't understand. What do you mean "rape" is permitted up until birth? Did you mean to say abortion? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics do not believe in abortion under any circumstances, EVER.. If the fetus is doomed to a critical disease, if the mother's life is in jeopardy, or if the child is a product of rape. Do I not understand the Catholic position on this? I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong.
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Anytime you want to start a thread on the evidence for Christ vs the evidence for the spaghetti monster, I'm ready.
I might take you up on that. The thing is, I don't want to be considered a Christian basher. I'm really not anti-Christian. I'm simply for rational thought process, which too often contradicts Christian thought process.
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I just want to highlight for other people to read and make up their own minds whether a parent has a say in everything their children learns or not.
Well, let me ask you this... Do you believe that home-schooled children should learn whatever their parents decide they should know? Suppose a parent decides that math just isn't very important, and instead, thinks that study in the pseudo-science of numerology is. Should they be allowed to send this child out into the world as mathematically illiterate adult, but who believes in the powers of numerology? Would that be fair to the child? Yet in a way, this is exactly what you're proposing (albeit in a lesser degree). But the principle is the same. There's a reason why there exists specific standards of learning for every child home-schooled, or not. So that ignorant parents can't unwittingly do harm to their children. If a parent doesn't think math is important, that child still must learn math at a nationally acceptable level. I think this is a good thing. You do not?
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Is that what I said, or is that what you are putting in my mouth. If that is what I said, provide the evidence that I said it.
Sorry. Are you not implying that you know better than educators what your children should be taught? I thought this was the very thing we're debating here. That you, the majority, should be allowed to have your children taught what you like, because well, you are the majority! But here's the reality...
99% of all biologist agree on evolution and think creationism is nonsense! Biologists are a minority in the population, but they clearly are in the majority when it comes to creationism. Now who would I want dictating what my kids should learn in a science class? You, or a biology professor?
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Again, you have proved that you want Christian thought SHUT OUT of the classroom.
Correct. I don't want it in a public classroom. But that doesn't mean I want to censor Christian thought. Why do you make that assumption? Christian thought can be practiced in your home, or in your church. That's where it belongs. If I were to believe in astrology, I wouldn't presume to have your kid have to engage in this practice at a public school.
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Something we have in common. I just mentioned it because I thought you were mistaking me for a Fundie.
Well your views do seem to be on the conservative side. I certainly wouldn't call yourself a liberal, would you? -lol
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All you have to do is provide the statements I made which lead you to these outrageous ideas. Like the others before you, you are practicing a form of fallacious argument called "straw man". Obviously, no one wants such a world as you ascribe to me. So if you can make people believe that is what I want, well, you've won the argument.
Only one problem. I never said any such thing.
I'm not suggesting that you want this to happen. Only that if you have your way, there is a very real chance this is what will happen.
The thing is, I don't want to be considered a Christian basher. I'm really not anti-Christian. I'm simply for rational thought process, which too often contradicts Christian thought process.
Are you implying that Christians are incapable of rational thought? Is this because many don't seem to agree with you? And since they don't agree, that aren't rational?
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Originally Posted by lobrobster
99% of all biologist agree on evolution and think creationism is nonsense! Biologists are a minority in the population, but they clearly are in the majority when it comes to creationism. Now who would I want dictating what my kids should learn in a science class? You, or a biology professor?
Just food for thought, my biology teacher in HS would not teach evolution, he didn't believe it. And is it an established fact? (Evolution?)
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Originally Posted by lobrobster
Correct. I don't want it in a public classroom. But that doesn't mean I want to censor Christian thought. Why do you make that assumption? Christian thought can be practiced in your home, or in your church. That's where it belongs. If I were to believe in astrology, I wouldn't presume to have your kid have to engage in this practice at a public school.
Christian thought belongs where ever the christian is. Be it the home, the school, whatever. Maybe the practice of open prayer belongs (in the world we live in) in the home or church. But Thought? I will say again, my kid prays at school - that is her right. She will not stop. Is she asking little suzy to join her? Not today.
Are you implying that Christians are incapable of rational thought? Is this because many don't seem to agree with you? And since they don't agree, that aren't rational?
Not at all. I am not in any way saying that Christians are "incapable" of rational thought. But I am saying that much/most of Christianity is not based on rational thought and even contradictory to it.
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Just food for thought, my biology teacher in HS would not teach evolution, he didn't believe it. And is it an established fact? (Evolution?)
Evolution is about as established of a fact as any scientific theory gets. A biology teacher that refused to teach evolution should be fired. Period. They certainly have a right to their beliefs, but they have no right to be teaching biology.
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Christian thought belongs where ever the christian is. Be it the home, the school, whatever.
That's fine. I'm not arguing that and I'm not sure why you think I am. I'm just saying don't push it on ME or others! I don't care what you're thinking or when you think it. Pray silently to yourself on YOUR time whenever you want.
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I will say again, my kid prays at school - that is her right. She will not stop. Is she asking little suzy to join her? Not today.
I don't think you'll find many people who are against prayer in school who disagree with this. Your daughter can and should pray in school or wherever else she wants if that's what she believes. No one is arguing that. As long as she doesn't disturb anyone else.
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