How and Why Would You Follow Christ Jesus?

Obediently.

Because I am convinced that He is God.

[QUOTE=elscarta;2070989



Tut, you are comparing apples with oranges. Surely you understand that Satan is anti-God not anti-Fred Smith! Satan does not care whether anyone agrees with Fred Smith or not or whether they have the correct meaning of the word passion but he has a vested interest in seeing that the Word of God is misunderstood.

Hi elscarta,

Apologies for misquoting you earlier. I can assure you that it wasn't intentional.

The following is about Descartes 'Evil Demon argument' It is a though experiment put forward by Descartes to develop his ideas of God through what he terms .'clear and distinct ideas' I don't necessarily agree with Descartes and I think the private language argument undermines Descartes position However, this is not the main point.

For Descartes God is a supreme being and therefore must be the source of all truth. The Evil Demon is also a supreme being and is the source of all lies and deception.

The Evil Demon is very much interested in Fred Smith in exactly the same way as God is interested in Fred Smith, but for totally different reasons. The Evil Demon wants to deceive Fred Smith IN ALL MATTERS, NOT JUST THEOLOGY. Why? Because the Evil Demon's deception is without limitations. In exactly the same way as God's love is without limitations.Basically the Evil Demon wants to make sure that Fred Smith does not arrive at "the truth" through some other means.

Fred Smith could easily be seen as Descartes in this experiment.

Descartes thinks that the idea of a perfect being could only have come from a perfect being. Therefore Descartes reasoned, there must be a God who created him, and who has implanted in him the idea of a perfect being who's nature is not to deceive. For Descartes this knowledge will allow him to perceive," the truth". If we have certain knowledge of God then this will rule out the possibility that he is being deceived.

I think you would want to say that Descartes is delusional . Was Descartes delusional?. I guess that's up to those who read his works.

Hello DeMaria, First let me say, it is nice to see you here on the Christian forum. I've often hoped we would hear from you again.

Back to the discussion, The influence for each answer is hopefully to take in consideration the reference of what was writtten as Prophecies Addressed to Jews. Then determine why we or they would follow Christ. And how would they or we follow HIM.

The Lord spoke of man being cursed to trust man in (Jeremiah 17:5). And an added fact, that for man to reach out to man, would be putting their heart away from the Lord. This being said, how then would it be safe to put our faith in Christ Jesus, who was a man? How could we trust HIM? I would like very much to bring out the reality of what brings us forward to being converted as Christians.

I believe in what is written as the spirit of truth, and God revealed and inspired every word for good reason. And I trust every word of what God has said was meant to be acknowledge as truth.

So what further truth was revealed and inspired that is written, that does permit us to trust in Jesus. How were the Jews to know, that they do remain obedient to God's word, by trusting in this man Jesus?

Also referenced was (Jeremiah 17:10)how our Lord searches the hearts of man to give accordingly. The assurance of our Lord being all knowing in power to our daily intentions of right or wrong.

So what convinces us of this belief?

The sharing of your studies concerning God's Word and the OT could give a better undertanding of what brought the increase of faith, and what converted the Christian.

This is what I would offer as further revealed and inspired truth spoken by our Lord concerning the Prophecies Addressed to Jews.

Jeremaih 33:14-15-16-17-18 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Note that our Lord says the priests which were the Levites in that period of time, would not want a man put before HIM offering meat or sacrifice continually. The Lord planned to stop what was taking place, to bring a Lord of righteousness, a branch of righteousness, who would execute judgement,and righteousness.

The need for sacrifices would be abolished because this Lord of righteousness would deliver them from sin and unrighteousness.

Once again Sndbay I will ask you how do we determine the true meaning of what is written in scripture?

Actually Descartes was only foolish in his belief that reason can determine "the truth" (since he did not know any better), but anyone today who believes that is delusional (since they should know better). The difference is that today we have Godel's Incompleteness Theorem which states

"that the axiomatic method of making logical deductions from given assumptions cannot in general provide a system which is both provably complete and consistent. There will always be truth that lies beyond, that cannot be reached from a finite collection of axioms"

Paul Davies "The Mind of God"

By the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and by offering the evidence of scripture that will further encourage the truth.

We know it is written that when you change the glory of God that is uncorruptible into being the image of a man which is corruptible, then God gives those up to the unclean lust of their own hearts. And when changing the truth of God into a lie, and instead serve to worship the act of what they created other then the Creator is unrighteous.
(Romans 1:21-1:25)

God Does Promise

Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


Your question has shown for a second time to be off the thread, and does not show respect to the thread questions. Can you not answer the thread question?

Hello elscarta,
I can see that you and sndbay still have unfinished business so I will make this may last entry if you like.

I don't know Godel's Incomplete Theorem . Does it mean that the premise or axiom used for a deductive process in mathematics or logic is self-evidently true? I am thinking of Descartes ' We cannot think of a being which cannot not exist' Anyway, You seem to agree that Descartes would be delusional if he had knowledge of the theorem and still held onto his belief.

The only reason I have drawn on Descartes arguments is to put forward three possibilities in relation to the question of determining the true meaning of scripture.

The possibilities are:-

(A) The Evil Demon deceives people only in matters of scripture. That is, incorrect interpretation of scripture ( As I understand the arguments so far this is your position).

(B) The Evil Demon deceives all people in all matters all of the time. He is a universal deceiver ( Could be described as Descartes position).

(C) The Evil Demon does not involve himself in any matters of language. Misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that can arise whenever language is involved (my position).

We can rule out (B) because we both agree that knowledge of God cannot come through the intellect.( I am not completely convinced this is true, but I will go along with you).

You position seems to be that true knowledge of the scriptures comes from reading the 'correct account'.
My question is how do we DETERMINE if an account is true unless it is first process by the intellect. When we appeal to the 'correct higher authority', are we not using our intellect to determine what is being said to us?

Given this we are back at position (C).

Hello, Tut, can I ask why you have become the Devil's advocate? Scripture says he is the deceiver, there is no qualification regarding the nature of the deceipt. He is the father of lies, such a description tells you he will deceive you no matter what language you speak or how good your understanding might be, in fact, the more intelligent and reasoning you are the greater the opportunity for deception.

The greatest deception so far is that he doesn't exist, or that he is limited in the way he will deceive us. We are now at the point where we are deceived into to thinking we rule this planet, that we have the ability to alter atmospheric conditions, that our efforts can somehow undo the mechanism God has placed in motion. We have the ability to destroy ourselves and we are being deceived into doing it

Hello paraclete,

In regards to your first paragraph. Actually, that is not my position, it's Descartes. In fact, I generally disagree with Descartes philosophy. The reason I introduced it was to point out that the Evil Demon is limited in the way he can deceive us (your second paragraph).

It is difficult to sum up in a few sentences but I go along the Bouwsma's criticism of Descartes which says that it would be logically impossible for Descartes to be deceived on every single issue. If universal deception were a reality then he would have no understanding of the word deception.

I would suggests because you recognize we are being deceived into thinking we are universally deceived suggests there is no universal deception. If there were such a thing as universal deception then we would simply think we rule the planet and no other possible alternative would come to mind.