God's love is conditional? Doesn't add up.

Its not a condition. Its a respect issue. Its a conscious choice to say I choose You God and promise to do all that You ask of me. Just as if you were to tell your children... You are not allowed to do something bad for you, if you choose to do this, you won't be allowed in my home where you can hurt your siblings. I still love you but I can't allow you to influence others.

Are you saying that if a non believer went to heaven, he/she could hurt the other people there and be a bad influence to them?

AND if for some unthinkable reason,my child chose not to accept my conditions, and I would not let them into my home, it would end right there. I would not send them to a place where they would be tortured and burned for eternity.

Thanks for trying but it still does not add up.

OK, look at in the simplest terms I can come up with.
If you were offered a free new car. , the only condition being that you were responsible to keep it washed every week, would you take it? Of course you would. Now if you chose to ignore the cleanliness stipulation and the person who gave it to you took it back. Would that be the givers fault? Of course not. It is your fault. God has offered a free gift of salvation. The only stipulation is that you must follow his teachings and learn to live your life according to his wishes and teachings. It is your choice to follow the rules or not. That is what free will is.

450donn,
Very good post.
Even though God may not take a person into His heaven where everythin must be perfect and pure He still loves the children who are not there.
God's love an mercy are perfect but so is His justice.
All of God's attributes are perfect or He is not God.
AND...
All being perfect they must be in balance with each other.
If they are not them perfection is lost.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I understand all of your analogies. I get that!.

Even though God may not take a person into His heaven where everythin must be perfect and pure He still loves the children who are not there. From arcura's post.

What does it matter if he still loves the people who are in hell? How does that help?

Imagine a person that has led an exemplary nearly flawless life. Did all the right things because that's just who he is. The only thing is, he is jewish. Now, because he does not believe Jesus is the messiah, he is going to hell. That's what you are saying to me.?

Answer the hard questions people and stop talking about just the pretty parts.
Another example - you have given your child a choice to follow your rules or not. IF they do, then you welcome them home. (Heaven)
If they don't, you will not allow them into your home.
In fact, not only can you not come home but I am going to send you to an awful place where you will be tortured and burned forever. Remember I still love you though.

Face it, this is the ugly truth you keep avoiding.

Would any of you present this ultimatum to your child? Unless you tell me no, I will just have to assume that you would.

You don't have a problem with God doing it.
Everything you describe is black or white. There is no grey area.

The issue is God is love, but he is also just, he is also one that demands his rules be followed.

He has set the rules, you may not like them, I may not like them, to you they may not be fair, but God set them up to be this way.

He gave mankind a way to gain forgiveness one that requires nothing but love and commitment. No work or act just love and acceptance of Christ. What greater love is there than that.

God does not in fact doom anyone to hell, man dooms hisself by refusal to accept Christ. The choice of life or death is mans to make.

And there is no flawless life, all men are sinners and must repent and accept Christ to be saved, There is no "third" choice no back door.

And Jesus was born Jewish, as was most of the early church, so when the words were said, that no one is good enough, the jews were included in that comment too.

But that's not the Gospel. There's no issue about following rules in order to get into heaven.

Just my point of view:


As a parent, I would push my child out of the way of an oncoming car that is sure to kill the child. I would rather that I get killled, then my child.

God sees that sin as that oncoming car and death, an eternity away from God [ hell ], is inevitable.

God knows there is nothing that we can do to get away from that car or survive.

God knows that the only way for his child [ we sinners ] to survive or escape is if HE, in the person of Jesus Christ, takes the punishment for our sins [ being hit by a car ], as painful as it is. God knows that HE can take the hit [ death ] and survive [ resurrection ]. By that act; death and sin are conquered.

This is a merciful and loving God, because HE sacrificed, that we sinners not get the just punishment that we deserve.

It is up to us whether we accept that gift, that grace, to trust in God, and to be with God for all eternity.

If a person, sadly, makes the choice not to believe in God or accept His mercy.... Then that is their choice.







"Imagine a person that has led an exemplary nearly flawless life. "






That is the thing, you don't have to be perfect or flawless or follow every rule, every commandment, every second of your life. God knows that it is impossible for us to live like that.

Read the Gospels, who does Jesus talk to - the flawed, the sinners [ The samaritan woman, the thief on the cross, the women caught in adultery, the tax collectors, the demon possessed, the lepers etc. ]
Who did Jesus rail against? The pharisees, [ legalists ] those that thought that by following the rules better than most that they were better; they looked down upon others as sinners.


Now the God that I believe in, knows I am a sinner and weak, and He forgives and loves me just the same. [ parable of the prodigal son ].


A cruel and merciless god, would not have sacrificed himself for me, for sinners. That god would have millions of rules that we have to folow - other wise you get fried. This a god that would not intervene with a car coming to kill us.







G&P

Cozyk,
First of all please remember that that God IS perfect in all His aspects so there MUST be a balance with them all including love and justice.
Justice demands punishment if you are evil.
If you are purposely evil you are rejecting God, then in the end He rejects you unless you have reformed are sorry for your sins and confessed your sins.
About the Jew you mentioned, there are theologians who claim that there is a separate salvation for Jews because they are God’s first born and chosen people. God chose to have the Messiah born a Jew and the bible says that the Jewish people will all come to accept Jesus as their Messiah. That may happen to those who are in Purgatory, but I do not know.
Now please get this, The Catholic Church teaches that the king of peace, love and mercy is Jesus Christ who will be the final Judge of who goes where so it is possible that the person with a near flawless life may be saved.
Also Purgatory is the place where a person’s impurities (sinful nature) is purged so that they can be pure and enter heaven.
I know that most Protestant do not believe in Purgatory even though the bible has several passages that indicates a place like Purgatory exists.
I'm very happy that God has provided such a place where more sinful people can pass through to salvation.
At every Mass world wide the Catholic Church prays for the salvation of all those who are in friendship with Jesus.
If a person is trying to live a good and decent life even though they do not know about Jesus they can be considered to be in friendship with Jesus because of their life style, effort and intent.
I believe that.
In fact I have often prayed that all souls will eventually make it to heaven for I do think that an eternity of anguish in punishment for a sinful life of less than 150 years is a bit excessive.
I also pray that God's perfect and infinite will will be done.
If you have prayed the Lord's pray you have asked that God's will be done.
I like you because you show yourself to be a person of love and mercy.
We (the world) need everyone to be that way. It would be the end of wars, terrorists, rapists, murderers, and all the other terrible and nasty things people do to each other.
But that is NOT the way the world is and I fear it will stay that way till the return of Christ the King and judge.
So far we Christians have failed in converting everyone to the love and salvation of God through Jesus Christ.
There are over 2 billion Christians, but 4 billion are not.
There's a lot of work to be done.
Pope John Paul II (often now called John Paul The Great) asked all Catholics to be more evangelical and in fact urged all Christians to be so.
I hope that we all are working to help save more souls.
Peace and kindness,
Fred