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Home > Society & Culture > Religion > Christianity   »   Follow-up to "Religion must be destroyed"

 
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 07:40 AM
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Follow-up to "Religion must be destroyed"

Found this interesting blog today. It addresses the same subject we discussed earlier.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Burchett
Author and Speaker

Is "Christian Intellect" an Oxymoron?

Warning: The following post may (or, sadly, may not) contain humor. This blog was produced in a program where irony and satire are processed. May contain sarcasm fragments. If you are allergic to humor or attempts at humor please avoid this product.

Richard Dawkins is an atheist who loves to denigrate Christian intellect. In fact, for Dawkins the very phrase “Christian intellect” would be oxymoronic. When asked what the main difference between believers and atheists was, Dawkins had a quick answer: "Well, we're bright."
I took that as I hope Dawkins intended it. I laughed. Because he surely does not believe that every single Christian in the world is dim-witted. Then again, perhaps he does. If Richard Dawkins genuinely believes that Christians are that intellectually challenged perhaps he should start a business geared toward people of faith. When we struggle with the difficult tasks of life like getting dressed or balancing a checkbook we could simply go to www.we-are-bright.com (not an actual site for any believers reading this) and get a real atheist to help us figure it out. Sample weblog…
Believer: “Help me bright people. I am locked out of my convertible, it is starting to rain, and the top is down!”
Bright Person: “No problem, still learning to walk upright religious person. Just reach inside and unlock the door.”
Believer: “Oh thank you, smarter than me person!”

Dawkins is not alone in believing that the average Christian is a nugget or two short of a Happy Meal. Here are some titles from blogs and websites (my comments in italics). Many I could not use because this is a family blog.

Stupid Christians index – Didn’t make the list…note to self…try harder
GOP operatives exploiting stupid Christians…That is so not true. Isn’t that right, Mr.Rove?
All Christians are idiots – Maybe today Diogenes the Cynic would be carrying his lantern looking for one smart Christian instead of an honest man.
Amazingly Stupid Christians – Premiering next week on Fox!
I am sick and tired of stupid Christians – Me too.
Stupid Christians are ruining the world – Don’t look now but they are getting lots of help.
101 Reasons to Hate Those Stupid Christians – My favorite. This guy is calling Christians stupid and he has 12 reasons listed on a website entitled 101 reasons. Hmmm. Perhaps he could also get some help from the folks at we-are-bright.com.

I do have one observation from visiting these websites. Get spell check! I began to think the cows from the Chick-fil-a billboards were typing these blogs and posts. Not a lot of communication is going on at most of these sites. Here is a typical exchange:
“You are a stupid (bleeping) Christian!”
“Well, I may be stupid but at least I am not going to hell.”

That is some helpful interchange going on there! That passes for debate at most of these sites.

CNSNews.com reported that some of the leading spokespeople for atheism recently gathered at a convention in Northern Virginia. The consensus was that science must ultimately destroy organized religion.

I hope they mean intellectually.

In his speech, Richard Dawkins portrayed a black-and-white intellectual battle between atheism and religion. He denounced the "preposterous nonsense of religious customs" and compared religion to racism. He also gave no quarter to moderate or liberal believers, asserting that "so-called moderate Christianity is simply an evasion."
"If you've been taught to believe it by moderates, what's to stop you from taking the next step and blowing yourself up?" he said.

Perhaps one overpowering reason is that no where in the teachings of Jesus does it ever say that I should blow myself up. Exactly when or where was the most recent Christian who blew themselves up for their faith? Oddly enough, author Sam Harris was a voice of moderation.

While Harris said he believed science must ultimately destroy religion, he also discussed spirituality and mysticism and called for a greater understanding of allegedly spiritual phenomena. He also cautioned the audience against lumping all religions together.
"The refrain that all religions have their extremists is bull-t," Harris said. "All religions do not have their extremists. Some religions have never had their extremists."

While the audience gave Dawkins a standing ovation, Harris received only polite applause. One questioner later declared herself "very disappointed" in Harris's talk.

Here is a heartbreaking but predictable sidebar to the story reported at Crosswalk.com.
Many of the attendees seemed to have developed an aversion to religion from conservative, Protestant Christians. Several of the atheists Cybercast News Service spoke to complained of living under fundamentalist parents who frowned upon any questioning of the Bible or any activity condemned in Scripture.
"It wasn't easy [telling my parents I was an atheist]," one said. "I still haven't entirely told them. I just say I'm a humanist, which they don't seem to mind."

That makes me sad but I am not surprised. Much of my book “When Bad Christians Happen to Good People” deals with legalism and the failure of many in the church to communicate grace and love. That type of legalistic religion has done immeasurable damage. Jesus was the harshest critic of “religious” hypocrites.

Not much has really changed in the past couple of hundred years. The great preacher Charles M. Spurgeon wrote in the 19th century that “if you follow Christ, all the hounds of the world will yelp at your heels. Count on this, if you live for Jesus Christ, the world will not speak well of you.”

I wish that was not true. I wish I could discuss my faith with civility and grace with everyone. I wish that everyone would view my attempts and desire to communicate my faith as genuine and caring. I am saddened that a group that prides itself on reason is so prone to use ugly stereotypes and ridiculous generalizations. But throwing me under the moron bus won’t change my hope of communicating the message of Christ to you. Sadly, hateful responses have been going on for some time.

So don't be surprised, friends, when the world hates you. This has been going on a long time. The way we know we've been transferred from death to life is that we love our brothers and sisters. (I John 3, The Message)

To those who disagree with my beliefs I can only say that I hope you don’t hate me. I do not hate you. I hope you don’t think I am stupid. I certainly don’t think you are stupid (at least until I get to know you and you demonstrate that fact beyond a shadow of a doubt). I do think some of you have a little anger issue but that is another topic. Perhaps if I can implement the words of James I can enter into civil dialogue with some of you.

Real wisdom, God's wisdom, begins with a holy life and is characterized by getting along with others. It is gentle and reasonable, overflowing with mercy and blessings, not hot one day and cold the next, not two-faced. You can develop a healthy, robust community that lives right with God and enjoy its results only if you do the hard work of getting along with each other, treating each other with dignity and honor. (James 3 – The Message)

That seems like a good place to start for me and my not so bright friends.

Dave Burchett is an Emmy Award winning television sports director, author, and Christian speaker. He is the author of When Bad Christians Happen to Good People and Bring'em Back Alive: A Healing Plan for those Wounded by the Church.

 
     

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Old Oct 16, 2007, 01:31 PM   #41  
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I believe in a God, after all I'm a deist. But I don't have a problem with any of the atheists here. They have all shown themselves to be quite intelligent. Deists have more in common with atheists than with christians.
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:17 PM   #42  
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Quote:
tatertot disagrees: ?????? what is the relevence and/or application for this statement?

The point is that the fact that we don't observe some phenomenon is, in itself, reason to believe that the phenomenon does not exist.

Like NeedKarma and others are pointing out. There is as much evidence for God as there is for a teapot orbiting around the Earth or a tiny talking elephant on the desk in front of you. Yet 2 of these things are ridiculous to you, and one you take as absolute truth. Does that not seem a little illogical?

Don't get me wrong, God is an incredibly powerful idea and a wonder of human ingenuity to come up with such a being to explain the world around us. But God's domain is being pushed further back by science and evidence.

We may never know what caused the big bang, maybe the idea of God will be forever safe there. Part of me hopes so, God is one of mankind's greatest inventions, on par with the theory of evolution and general relativity, just in a different environment and time.
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:26 PM   #43  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Your argument still violates basic logic. Look at your first sentence:



You contend one cannot make an absolute statement (of any kind) unless they are all-knowing. Yet you say god exists, right? How can you make such an absolute statement unless you are all knowing? So I propose your initial statement, "one cannot make an absolute statement unless they are all knowing" is a false statement. If, by chance, you do not personally believe beyond all doubt (the Christian) god exists, then you are not a Christian, and this entire argument is moot. But I'm assuming you consider yourself a Christian.

Do a google search for "The square of oppositions"; your statement is a "E" statement, and it is FALSE; therefore, my statement, "one can make an absolute statement without being all knowing" is the "A" statement - it must be true.

According to your logic, no one can ever assert an absolute, because none of us are all-knowing. You cannot deny the existence of Zeus, or the invisible, odorless, tasteless, silent pink unicorn which follows your every move. In the same token, you cannot CONFIRM the existence of anything - because you are not all-knowing.

There's also a violation in logic of god being both omnipotent and omniscient, but I pointed that out in another thread.

Beyond all of that, by saying you do not believe in Zeus because you don't know for sure if he exists indicates you acknowledge the POSSIBILITY he can exist. So you admit there is the possibility another god exists. That violates your theology. Bad Christian, BAD!

So, are you a bad Christian who acknowledges there could be other gods, or have you made a flawed logical argument?

lol... Nice TRY you are so predictable..lol . YOu should think before you write though. Ofcourse we can make absolute statements of things we have all knowlege of. i can make an absolute statement right now that i am NOT wearing red shoes. that is an absolute statement and i dont need to have all knowlege of the universe and beyond to make that statement. All i have to do is look at my feet. its a fact i am not wearing red shoes. i can also say there is no cheese in my sandwich. That is an absolute statement, i dont have to look no further than my sandwich to prove it. The example are endless. We all make absolute statements everyday.. of things we have all knowlege of. I have all knowlege of my sandwich i can tell you that.. and i can also tell you that the 99.999999% of knowlege you dont posess could have evidence that God exisist.

and for you weak Zeus argument. I am not a bad christian...lol that was funny.. The Holy Bible talkes about people having other gods (note the little g) even the people of Moses day had a golden calf as thier god. Did the golden calf god exist? YES Do i beilieve in or worship the calf? No Does me admitting that the golden calf god worshiped by those people existed make me a bad Christian? most certainly not.. So i dont know if Zeus exists and therefore i dont believe in him or worship him. But i do know my God exists because he has revealed himself to me and no one including you can argue against that because then you would have to know everthing about me, my thoughts, and you would have to have been present with me from the day i was born to prove that He has not revieled himself to me. So if you read my analogy about gold in CHina, you would see that for me to say with CERNTAINTY "there is no gold in China" i have to be all knowing of China. I would need to know everything that is in china, in the ground, in people's homes, mouths, under every rock cave etc. But for me to say "there IS gold in China i just need to find one fellow with a gold tooth or one little girl with a gold chain, then i can say with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that "there is Gold in China".

So you come with it at what ever angle you want to but you can not argue or prove to me that there is no GOd. So that means you are religious because you choose to believe that God does not exist despite the absense of evidence.
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:38 PM   #44  
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Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exodus 20:2-4 (in Context) Exodus 20 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 23:13
“And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.
Exodus 23:12-14 (in Context) Exodus 23 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 5:7
‘You shall have no other gods before Me.
Deuteronomy 5:6-8 (in Context) Deuteronomy 5 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 6:14
You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are all around you
Deuteronomy 6:13-15 (in Context) Deuteronomy 6 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 7:4
For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly.
Deuteronomy 7:3-5 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 8:19
Then it shall be, if you by any means forget the LORD your God, and follow other gods, and serve them and worship them, I testify against you this day that you shall surely perish.
Deuteronomy 8:18-20 (in Context) Deuteronomy 8 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 11:16
Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them,
Deuteronomy 11:15-17 (in Context) Deuteronomy 11 (Whole Chapter)

The Bible does not deny the existence of other gods. The LORD God says they are lesser gods that we are not to worship. These include created gods and also the things we place as idols in our heart--idols can be money, intelligence, our arguments and beliefs we are unwilling to submit to the LORD God, etc. Christianity does not deny their existence, just the worship of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tatertot
lol... Nice TRY you are so predictable..lol . YOu should think before you write though. Ofcourse we can make absolute statements of things we have all knowlege of. i can make an absolute statement right now that i am NOT wearing red shoes. that is an absolute statement and i dont need to have all knowlege of the universe and beyond to make that statement. All i have to do is look at my feet. its a fact i am not wearing red shoes. i can also say there is no cheese in my sandwich. That is an absolute statement, i dont have to look no further than my sandwich to prove it. The example are endless. We all make absolute statements everyday.. of things we have all knowlege of. I have all knowlege of my sandwich i can tell you that.. and i can also tell you that the 99.999999% of knowlege you dont posess could have evidence that God exisist.

and for you weak Zeus argument. I am not a bad christian...lol that was funny.. The Holy Bible talkes about people having other gods (note the little g) even the people of Moses day had a golden calf as thier god. Did the golden calf god exist? YES Do i beilieve in or worship the calf? No Does me admitting that the golden calf god worshiped by those people existed make me a bad Christian? most certainly not.. So i dont know if Zeus exists and therefore i dont believe in him or worship him. But i do know my God exists because he has revealed himself to me and no one including you can argue against that because then you would have to know everthing about me, my thoughts, and you would have to have been present with me from the day i was born to prove that He has not revieled himself to me. So if you read my analogy about gold in CHina, you would see that for me to say with CERNTAINTY "there is no gold in China" i have to be all knowing of China. I would need to know everything that is in china, in the ground, in people's homes, mouths, under every rock cave etc. But for me to say "there IS gold in China i just need to find one fellow with a gold tooth or one little girl with a gold chain, then i can say with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that "there is Gold in China".

So you come with it at what ever angle you want to but you can not argue or prove to me that there is no GOd. So that means you are religious because you choose to believe that God does not exist despite the absense of evidence.

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tatertot agrees: thank you!
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:38 PM   #45  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tatertot
lol... Nice TRY you are so predictable..lol . YOu should think before you write though. Ofcourse we can make absolute statements of things we have all knowlege of. i can make an absolute statement right now that i am NOT wearing red shoes. that is an absolute statement and i dont need to have all knowlege of the universe and beyond to make that statement. All i have to do is look at my feet. its a fact i am not wearing red shoes. i can also say there is no cheese in my sandwich. That is an absolute statement, i dont have to look no further than my sandwich to prove it. The example are endless. We all make absolute statements everyday.. of things we have all knowlege of. I have all knowlege of my sandwich i can tell you that.. and i can also tell you that the 99.999999% of knowlege you dont posess could have evidence that God exisist.

and for you weak Zeus argument. I am not a bad christian...lol that was funny.. The Holy Bible talkes about people having other gods (note the little g) even the people of Moses day had a golden calf as thier god. Did the golden calf god exist? YES Do i beilieve in or worship the calf? No Does me admitting that the golden calf god worshiped by those people existed make me a bad Christian? most certainly not.. So i dont know if Zeus exists and therefore i dont believe in him or worship him. But i do know my God exists because he has revealed himself to me and no one including you can argue against that because then you would have to know everthing about me, my thoughts, and you would have to have been present with me from the day i was born to prove that He has not revieled himself to me. So if you read my analogy about gold in CHina, you would see that for me to say with CERNTAINTY "there is no gold in China" i have to be all knowing of China. I would need to know everything that is in china, in the ground, in people's homes, mouths, under every rock cave etc. But for me to say "there IS gold in China i just need to find one fellow with a gold tooth or one little girl with a gold chain, then i can say with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that "there is Gold in China".

So you come with it at what ever angle you want to but you can not argue or prove to me that there is no GOd. So that means you are religious because you choose to believe that God does not exist despite the absense of evidence.
No matter what you say you do not "know" that God exists. You believe based on your personal experience that there is a God. I believe in a God, but I don't "know" there is one. You can "see" that you're not wearing red shoes, or you can "see" that is there is no cheese on your sandwich, but you cannot see God.

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tatertot disagrees: diest you are confused i think you just need to swich from diest to the athiest religion. You dont believe there is a god right? or do beileve there is a God? which is it? make up your mind. coz you are not making any sense
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:47 PM   #46  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
I believe in a God, after all I'm a deist. But I don't have a problem with any of the atheists here. They have all shown themselves to be quite intelligent. Deists have more in common with atheists than with christians.

Diest that is the dumbest thing i have heard you say...lol Seriosly sorry to says so but that is the most retarded thing i have heard in a long time. You think Deists have more in common with atheists than with christians...I think you need to find a dictionary and revise the meanings of deist and athiests. they are comple opposites. A diest believes there is a God and Atheist believe there is NO God. so what do you have incommon??? A diest and a Christian both believe there is a god there for they have something in commom. Come on people if you are going to argue your points you guys need to make rational inteligent points. Seriously i came one here to discuss religious beliefs and now i am have to teach people first grade English. what does a diest have in common with an athiest?? really i am curious...lol oh i will tell you what you have incommon. ..You both have hatred toward Christians just like the rest of the "world". You can tollerate all religions large and small as long as they are not christians. I am not moved nor surprised because Christ warned us many years ago that just as he was hated so will we be. So your hatred towards christians further cements my belief in Christ because he was soooo right. people can say buddah Krishna Dali lama and no one cares but the moment you say Jesus controversy hatred venom starts to fly. Thats fine, i aint mad at ya diest. I am still praying for you
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:50 PM   #47  
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I think we need a troll avatar pronto.

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tatertot disagrees: i think you need to practice your athiest religion and stop giving religion "a thought" I thought athiest didnt care about religion so why are you all on line trying to make a point. Just live your godless life and stop worring about other's beliefs
jillianleab agrees: Just put a request in for one
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 02:59 PM   #48  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
The point is that the fact that we don't observe some phenomenon is, in itself, reason to believe that the phenomenon does not exist.

Like NeedKarma and others are pointing out. There is as much evidence for God as there is for a teapot orbiting around the Earth or a tiny talking elephant on the desk in front of you. Yet 2 of these things are ridiculous to you, and one you take as absolute truth. Does that not seem a little illogical?

Don't get me wrong, God is an incredibly powerful idea and a wonder of human ingenuity to come up with such a being to explain the world around us. But God's domain is being pushed further back by science and evidence.

We may never know what caused the big bang, maybe the idea of God will be forever safe there. Part of me hopes so, God is one of mankind's greatest inventions, on par with the theory of evolution and general relativity, just in a different environment and time.

I can tell you with Certainty that God exists because he has revealed himself to me and has changed my life and i speak to him every day. And for you to prove that he has NOT revealed himself to me you would have to know everthing about me my thoughts will and emotions and you would have to have been with me from the day i was born. You can not prove to me that God does not exist because you dont even know a fraction of a % of all the knowlege there is to know in the universe and beyond.

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savedsinner7 agrees: Thank God for His revealed Presence!
Capuchin agrees: Like i said, we have wonderful imaginations :)
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 03:08 PM   #49  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deist
No matter what you say you do not "know" that God exists. You believe based on your personal experience that there is a God. I believe in a God, but I don't "know" there is one. You can "see" that you're not wearing red shoes, or you can "see" that is there is no cheese on your sandwich, but you cannot see God.

I "know" that God exists. You know, you really should stop trying to convert people to your way of thinking by putting "contradictons" and "false prophecies" on here and concentrate more on your relationship with God. By your statement it seems to me that you are weak in your faith. That's what having faith is deist. It's "knowing" what you believe in is true and real. Everyone can know God exists just as I do if they would only allow themselves to. I don't have to have proof the whole world can see to know God exists. The proof God has given me is enough to know. Also, "seeing" is not the only way to know something exists. You can't "see" a headache, but you "know" when you have one.

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tatertot agrees: you cant see the wind but i believe in it because i can see the effects of it just like i see the effects of what god has done for me!
savedsinner7 agrees: very good
 
 
     
 
 
Old Oct 16, 2007, 03:34 PM   #50  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tatertot
Diest that is the dumbest thing i have heard you say...lol Seriosly sorry to says so but that is the most retarded thing i have heard in a long time. You think Deists have more in common with atheists than with christians...lol You didnt to do well on your SAT's did you?
I think you need to find a dictionary and revise the meanings of deist and athiests. they are comple opposites. A diest believes there is a God and Atheist believe there is NO God. so what do you have incommon??? A diest and a Christian both believe there is a god there for they have something in commom. Come on people if you are going to argue your points you guys need to make rational inteligent points. Seriously i came one here to discuss religious beliefs and now i am have to teach people first grade English. what does a diest have in common with an athiest?? really i am curious...lol oh i will tell you what you have incommon. ..You both have hatred toward Christians just like the rest of the "world". You can tollerate all religions large and small as long as they are not christians. I am not moved nor surprised because Christ warned us many years ago that just as he was hated so will we be. So your hatred towards christians further cements my belief in Christ because he was soooo right. people can say buddah Krishna Dali lama and no one cares but the moment you say Jesus controversy hatred venom starts to fly. Thats fine, i aint mad at ya diest. I am still praying for you
I would rather not have someone who calls me retarded to pray for me. What do atheists & deists have in common ? They both place reason above faith. They both believe science over religion. They both believe in evolution. So what that I believe in God & they don't ? God doesn't mind. If I could ever be persuaded to accept Jesus as my savior, a christian such as you with your hostile attidude certainly couldn't do it. You give the christian god a bad name.

Comments on this post
tatertot disagrees: God forgive me, but diest you are either retarded/confused, one of the two, sorry..lol
 
 
     


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