I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kinda confusing to me.

Wangdoodle

Would you rather the devil and his angels be in Heaven being given the privilege of enjoying themselves torturing helpless human souls? I see hell as the eternal separation from God. Heaven is the place for those who desire God. There must be a place then for those who do not.

Starman

The Bible simply tells us that the penalty for sin is death. If it had been eternal torture Adam would have been told so that he could make an informed decision. Adam knew what God meant by death because God made it clear that it meant turning into inanimate matter again. Any other elaborations are the idea's of men and only serve to make God look evil by keeping creatures alive just so that they can suffer pointlessly since no one benefits from it except maybe a sadistic onlooker.

Wangdoodle

This is a good argument and I have heard this argument before. I like to look at salvation history from the whole of Gods word. Jesus spoke about life after death. Does this mean that humans have no soul? That the human soul does not live on after the body dies?

Hell exists because Satan and his angels rebelled against God. They “forced” his hand so to speak. They could not remain in Heaven, for it is no place for evil. God prepared a place for them. This is a place which consists in the deprivation of the glory of God. I do not see this as an act of a God who is a monster, but of a God who is just. God does not wish that any be lost. So, he humbled himself, became man, suffered and died. To me this is an act of a loving God. Not of a God that is criminally insane. Christ clearly spoke of the after life and of those who will be heaven and those who will not.

Starman

The one who claimed that man wouldn't die and that God was lying when he said that
man would die and become like dust was Satan. The word translated as soul is nephesh and nephesh never refers to an immortal spirit. That's why we read about souls being killed by the edge of the sword, souls having blood, souls feeling hunger, souls being destroyed. The word nephesh is also used in reference to future or present life. These meanings can be easily verified via a Hebrew Lexicon so there is actually no real excuse for not knowing their true meaning.

The Bible Meaning of Soul

Immortal Soul Absurdities

Then we have Gehenna, which is merely an incinerator outside the walls of Jerusalem,
the Hebrew word sheol which refers to the common grave of mankind, and the Greek tartarus which refers to a prison-like restricted condition where fallen angels who rebelled in Noah's day are in. The problem is that all are translated as hell regardless of their true meaning and in that fashion contribute to the attack on God's righteous personality. It's also a subtle repetition of the first satanic lie that if we sin we don't die.
Our Immortal Soul



Here is what the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1971 vol 11 p. 276. says about the word sheol which is so often irresponsibly translated as hell.

"Sheol" is a place where the state of the dead reside knowing neither pain or pleasure, neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked. The good and the bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and Gentiles all sleep together without awareness of one another.

BTW
No one can force God's hand to do evil and torture of sentient creatures is evil and incompatible with a God of love.

Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?

Starman

The use of nonbiblical books to support the Bible is an accepted practice.
History books which verify biblical historical accuracy, archelogical books inform us about discoveries which show that the Bible is trustworthy, medical books which show us that the Hebrews were divinely guided in relation to health practices, astronomy books which tell us that the Bible indeed spoke true when it described the earth as spherical and seemingly hanging from nothing, concordances to help us see the inner harmony in the inspired scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, Greek and Hebrew Lexicons which allow us to check the original meaning of words in order to make sure that they have been translated correctly.

As for what I am "trying" to say, it's written in clear English.
You disagree? OK, that is your right.

Fr_Chuck

Just a reminder to all and to our new members for sure,

This is a Christianity section, under Religion but please remember there are many many denominations within Christianity and the teachings of heaven and hell. So remember we are not here to tell another member that thier view point is wrong, it is merley to give our view points, or to discuss the view point of the other.

As for as other books, all christian denominations in ther seminary use other books to educate thier ministers and help explain the various books, often passage by passage. Just as a good bible scholar would never start thier study without a greek and hewbrew dictionary, and none will try and study without research in the customs of the people during various years to fully understand what the means of the various bible stories and the such.

while the points don't really count please consider not using the "disagree" just because one denominations teachings does not meet yours. To thier church they are not wrong,
You can merely post another replay saying why you think your answer is best.

Starman

Why I reject the eternal torture doctrine.


No sugar coating intended--just common sense.

Any interpretation of biblical texts that maligns God's holy character by describing him as capable of injustice is by default unacceptable. Neither are the scriptures always to be translated literally especially in a book like Revelation uses symolic language. Otherwise we'd have to believe that the stars literally fall from the sky, that a real wild beast arises from the sea, that the earth has four corners, that the sea will literally turn to blood, that the woman Called Babylon the Great is a literal woman who rides a reall seven headed animal while she's literally drunk, that a literal city with its upper levels reaching two hundred miles into outer space will descend and that we will all have to live in it. That Jesus is a literal lamb, has a literal wife and that this wife has stars on her head, that a literal dragon arises from a literal sea, that Jesus has a literal sword sticking out of his mouth and uses it to strike the nations and so on. Revelations is a book written in symbols and we are told that it is in its introduction.



Fallacious Reasoning:


First, human beings have rights by virtue of being human. We don't lose our human rights simply because a more powerful being has intentions of depriving us of these rights. One of these rights is that humans should never be subjected to cruel punishment. That's in the Constitution the United States, a Constitution which is praised and imitated by other countries who also value human rights. In short, to agree with the interpretation given above I would have to view God as a violator of human rights. I find that unacceptable and a clear indicator that the interpretation of the above verses in a literally is not the right way.


There is also crass rhetorical inconsistency here because the same people who would praise this type of evil tongue in cheek if their god does it are the same ones who would raise their voices in protest if torture is instituted as punishment in their respective countries. It seems to me as if fear of being tortured forces believers in eternal torture to approve of something they would otherwise condemn. Actually, if I believed such a thing I'd be pretty scared to speak out myself. So it's understandable.

Wangdoodle

I would agree that we can not take every part of the Bible literally. We must read it in it’s full context.

Theology is an interesting study. Using human reason to understand the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient we will always come short in full understanding. There is suffering in this world now, but I do not believe God takes pleasure in that suffering. It is a result of sin from the beginning. Any thing that is short of the full glory of God will be suffering. I believe God is full of love in that he has provided a way to his full glory. We also have free will to choose that way. If there were no choice, we would not have free will. We would just be like programmed robots. God will pass judgment on me; I can not pass judgment on Him.

This is what I like about AMHD, a free exchange of ideas.

Starman

I am not passing judgment on God I am passing judgment on the eternal torture as
punishment concept. Also, freedom of choice is not the issue here since I never denied that humans were given freedom to choose. As for not understanding God by using our God-given ability to reason, tell that to Thomas Aquinas who used reason in the service of faith. Also, lack of reasoning can lead us into accusing God of things he doesn't do since we are reading the Bible with our minds on hold, a perfect recipe for misunderstanding. This in turn can lead to people rolling on the floor making garbled sounds while claiming it to be holy spirit, people lashing themselves with whips in order to express repentance, to indiscriminately accepting any voice they imagine to hear as the voice of God and doing whatever it says even to the point of committing murder, the list is endless. All these have one thing in common, however, they malign God's character via misrepresentation just as Satan did in the Garden of Eden.



BTW
Actually, saying that God is incomprehensible is saying that he provided us with no means of getting to know him--another accusation against God's character that he doesn't deserve.

Wangdoodle

I actually agree with Aquinas. I should have worded that better. Insert: Totally and fully understand the mind of God.

Also, I do not believe God is incomprehensible. We can Know Him through what He has revealed to us through his creation and word, But we can not understand Him totally and fully until we are face to face (so to speak) in heaven.