At Ask Me Help Desk you can ask questions in any topic and have them
answered for free by our experts. To ask questions or participate in
answering them you must register for a free account. By registering you
will be able to:
Get free answers from experts in any of our 300+
topics.
The Bible shows God to be a distinct personage from Jesus Christ, who is a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and from the Holy Ghost according to the New Testament. Thus, the Eternal Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate entities, perfectly distinct and in person independent from each other. This is the doctrine clearly stated by our Saviour. It is the doctrine proclaimed by his disciples in their epistles to the ancient saints. Any doctrine to the contrary contradicts what is plainly written and is a misinterpretation of these teachings. There was no confusion in the minds of Peter, John, and Paul. Consider what is written in the scriptures.
First, we have the occasion of the baptism of our Lord. According to Matthew, when Jesus was baptised he "went up straightway out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him; and lo, a voice from heaven saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This scene is confirmed by Mark and Luke; but the account given by Luke is even more explicit. He says, "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." I will refer to this event and the conclusions we must draw from it later.
Likewise, Matthew in relating the story of the transfiguration, says that while Jesus and his three disciples were with Moses and Elias on the mount, "There came a voice out of the cloud which said, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." This is also confirmed by Mark and Luke.
On another occasion, as related in the 12th chapter of John, when Jesus was praying to his Father he said,
"Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it and will glorify it again."
Some of the assembled people "said that it thundered; others said an angel spoke to him." The very nature of the answer precludes the thought that it could have been the voice of any other than his Father.
It is impossible to harmonise such statements in the scriptures with the prevailing notion that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are not separate personages. Our Saviour was not a deceiver; he did not resort to ventriloquism to confuse and mislead those who were with him. We must if we use our sense of reason conclude that on each occasion when the Father spoke to the Son he was in some other place, and the voice was not coming in some mysterious way from the Son.
In John 14:28, the Saviour said to his disciples: "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
Naturally his Father would be greater because he is the Father, and this likewise teaches us the separate entities of the Father and the Son.
Then we have the witness of Paul to the Corinthian saints, wherein he says Christ must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet, and when that time comes, he, Christ,
"Shall have delivered up the kingdom to God the Father." Moreover, when the last enemy is destroyed and all things are put under the feet of God the Father, then, said Paul, "When all things are subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."--I Cor. 15:24-28.
Then again, unto whom was Christ praying as recorded in the seventeenth chapter of John, when he said:
"Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee…. And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
Surely he was not praying to himself. It is absurd to say that the mysterious essence called the Son was praying to the same mysterious essence called the Father.
In the Garden the Saviour prayed saying, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." Consistently we cannot say that he would utter such a prayer to himself.
When Mary came to the tomb unaware of the Lord's resurrection, she found the sepulchre empty, but the risen Lord stood by. She thought him the gardener, and said:
Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Surely if the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are one person, then this remark by our Lord to Mary, is inconsistent. We must conclude, of course, that the Lord is consistent, and that only man is inconsistent.
Christ could not ascend to himself.
He could not be greater than himself.
Said our Redeemer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
There is not within the covers of the Bible one single passage which can properly be construed to uphold the erroneous doctrine that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance one, and merely a spirit, or essence, without body or parts or passions, incomprehensible and invisible. To the contrary, throughout the scriptures there is ample evidence in numerous passages, teaching that the Eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate entities, perfectly distinct and in person independent from each other. This is the doctrine clearly stated by our Saviour. Any doctrine to the contrary contradicts what is plainly written and is a misinterpretation of these teachings.
When Stephen was being martyred he saw God: "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts vii: 55, 56.) Nothing could be plainer and more convincing from the written Scriptures than that Stephen actually saw God, and that He and His Son were in the heavens in the presence of each other.
Paul wrote to the Philippians as follows: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus; who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." (Phillip. ii: 5, 6.) And again in Col. 1.15, Paul said respecting the Saviour: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature." To the Hebrews the same apostle says, concerning Jesus: "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Heb. 1: 3.) These writings of Paul fully corroborate in doctrine all the quotations on the subject made from the Old and New Testaments.
The Scriptures referred to show conclusively the personality of the Father, and a portion of the quotations presented, point to the fact that He is a separate personage, and entirely distinct in person from His Son Jesus Christ.
How can humans discuss this? You rightly point to the distinctness of the persons yet the one-ness of God, or as you called Him elsewhere, the God-head.
Am I reading you wrong to see that you, also, are agreeing to this distinctness within the one-ness?
How can humans discuss this? You rightly point to the distinctness of the persons yet the one-ness of God, or as you called Him elsewhere, the God-head.
Am I reading you wrong to see that you, also, are agreeing to this distinctness within the one-ness?
You do not read me right. The Godhead is God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, which are three separate and distinct persons acting in the unity of the Godhead but not as explained in the Doctrine of Trinity - which I reject as unbiblical - which has it that there is one God but three 'economies.'
How can humans discuss this? That has never been a problem for humans. Jesus has said that we must not only discuss it, but that we MUST come to know God, and that we must become as he is.
"This, then, is eternal life to know God, and Jesus Christ whom God has sent."
"Be ye, therefore, perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Theology, is talking about God, and we do talk about God, discuss God, debate God and his nature, characteristics, attributes, being, will, mind, purposes, etc. etc.
You are discussing the very thing you question whether human can discuss and question. Answers prove a little more elusive, but the discussions and debates are always fascinating.
Indeed. Fascinating and illuminating when done right. I'm glad you point out what I misunderstood.
I don't understand the statement "The Godhead is God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, which are three separate and distinct persons "acting in the unity of the Godhead".
What other words could you use to describe this unity? What fault do you find in the historic Christian explanation of this unity (which, as you rightly point out, we call the Trinity)?
I am curious, too...if you don't mind disclosing: Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
Indeed. Fascinating and illuminating when done right. I'm glad you point out what I misunderstood.
I don't understand the statement "The Godhead is God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, which are three separate and distinct persons "acting in the unity of the Godhead".
What other words could you use to describe this unity? What fault do you find in the historic Christian explanation of this unity (which, as you rightly point out, we call the Trinity)?
I am curious, too...if you don't mind disclosing: Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
When I use the term 'Godhead,' I mean the combination of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.
The unity to which I refer is of purpose and not persons. There are three persons in the Godhead who act in concert - hence unity of purpose and intent - although each has his separate being, and individual, discrete and independent personality and will, but the three Persons are not merely modes of activity of one indivisible God.
The traditional Christian Trinity holds that there are not three separate distinct and individual persons in the Trinity, but God in one Person who sometimes behaves as God the Father, sometimes as the God the Son of the Father, and sometimes as the God the Holy Spirit, but whatever modality they act in at any given moment they are the one and same person.
My objections to this traditional nonbiblical view is that it is a contradiction, and God is not the author of confusion; that the Trinity per se is not supportable from scripture; and that events recorded in the Bible militate powerfully against God and the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost being the same person or persons. Cogent examples are have provided in the posts divided into three parts on account of its length, and to which your refer in your questions.
While it is sometimes possible to guess from content of posts the leaning or denomination of a poster, it is my experience that such revelations often cloud more important issues and head us into entirely wrong directions.
The name of the church in your question was changed some six or seven years back to "The Community Of Christ" although they were previously styled as you have it.
My objections to this traditional nonbiblical view is that it is a contradiction, and God is not the author of confusion; that the Trinity per se is not supportable from scripture; and that events recorded in the Bible militate powerfully against God and the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost being the same person or persons. Cogent examples are have provided in the posts divided into three parts on account of its length, and to which your refer in your questions.
Totally agree... What scripture is that from morganite? "God is not a God of confusion" hmmmm I cannot think of it!
Not all Christians believe the holy spirit is a person. There are Christians who believe it to be the force God used to create the universe, which he also uses to strengthen, inspire, encourage, enlighten, his worshippers. This is not to say I am seeking debate on this issue since this is not a debating forum and debates rarely are productive and the debators rarely if ever accept the opposing view. Only to say that there are divergeant opinions on this matter.
Example of the opposing viewpoint can be found at the following websites:
Excerpt:
The Scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person. For example, the Holy Spirit is referred to as a gift (Acts 10:45; 1 Timothy 4:14). We are told that it can be quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19), that it can be poured out (Acts 2:17; 10:45), and that we are baptized with it (Matthew 3:11). It must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6), and it also renews us (Titus 3:5). These are certainly not attributes of a person.
The Scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person.
And in some ways that demonstrate that he is:
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Early Christian art shows a three-faced God, one of whom is the Holy Ghost. This can be found on the front cover of Mircea Eliade's "The Sacred and the Profane," in the softback edition.
I regret I have not time at present to provide further examples, but the creeds describe the Holy Ghost as a 'person' and that must speak for itself.
I cannot think of it!
Linear Mode
