If Jesus is not God, but a being created by God, and thus part of creation, how does that affect justification, atonement, and salvation?

sassyT

Jesus is God!
John 1vs 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This Chapter tells us Plainly that Jesus IS God And He has always existed with God and Holy Spirit from the Beginning. Jesus is was Not created He is God and everything was Created By Him and Through Him.

sassyT

This is Incorrect Because Jesus Did Claim to be God. That is the reason why he was crusified because the Jewish Scibes and Pharosies accused Him of Blasphamy.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)

And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

yor1

It would be incorrect to suggest that Jesus died because he claimed to be The God.
Thats not the reason the bible gives as to why they handed him over to Pilot or why they themselves claimed he was to die.
That conclusion is not represented in scripture.
The scriptures are clear
He died as the son of the God...
It is as the son of the God that he comes to us..He is likened to Adam in being the second Adam...inaugurating the new covenant..It as as the son of The God that he goes to the Cross..
And clearly there is no claim that there exists a tri fold God ..He speaks of the one true God and you read the English version, translated according to a theological rational..When the Scriptures speak of The word they speak of Gods expressed thought, the logos..And then goes on to state that it is by the expressed thought of God that all things are created..
The gender distinction of "He" does not exist in the Greek in the same way it is used in the English, and the application of the word becoming flesh is clearly not defining Jesus as being God but that Gods "expressed thought" becomes flesh...That Jesus himself is the very image of the invisible God ...
That to see Him is to see the God, the Father of all life..
We are, according to scripture, children of God. Not brothers to God...We are never called Jesus children but Brethren to him, Like him a child of The God...
So In reality its how we have learnt to apply the lessons of scripture and what in fact we see in them , more than what was actually meant..
We live today under 1700 years of teaching that says that Jesus is God himself.. we have also been told that not to believe that God is a trinity excludes us from the household of faith..
But the scriptures never in fact say this..
They require a belief in the life and death and resurrection of the only Born son of The God.. By requiring a belief beyond the simple facts and guidelines of scripture, By erecting walls that prohibit inclusion because of men ordained ideas we are rejecting people from the kingdom not inviting them in.

You will find that nothing in scripture requires Jesus to be God in order for him to be The Gods provision for sin and life..All that is ultimately required is faith in God because of the Lord Jesus...To believe that we died with his representative death and are raised to newness of life in his resurrection..The theological whys andwherefores are not a requirement.
If we died with him we shall also live with him..
We are baptized into his death..and raised to newness of life..
He came by water and the blood
on our behalf.. He is lifted up in order to draw all men unto him..
As the children of Israel had faith in the saving power of God when looking to the bronze serpent on the pole , so we when looking unto him are by faith partakers of death to the old man and life in the spirit..
These are all themes of the NEW testament..The theology created by man that has surrounded the church has done more harm that good. We should be looking for ways to include people in the results of the Cross not exclude..

Donna Mae

talaniman-
That was such a good answer.

yor1

Atonement is not forgiveness.. Its much more than forgivenesss. Forgiveness is what Got offers out of Himself and that does not require atonement..If one were in fact to read the scriptures one would find that God forgives anyone who turns from Their sins...But our salvation from sin requires much more than Gods forgiveness.If it only required The Gods forgiveness then all could easily be reconciled without the death of Jesus..
Gods desire and willingness to forgive is the movement behind the means of reconciliation not the result of..
Salvation from sin is the result of believing God.. much like the Israelites believed God when looking to the bronze serpant..The serpant on the pole carried no power in itself. but belief in God bought the promised result..Later the people eventually began to worship the means of faith(The serpant on the pole)instead of God and recieved Gods wrath..
Likewise the lambs blood on the lintle in Egypt had no power to preserve the firstborn and the Angel of death pass over..it was the demonstration of trust in Gods word that provided the passing over..
And like Abraham being considered righteous was not the result of any other action but believing the God..Abraham believed God and it was acounted to him as Innocence..
Our salvation from sin and reconciliation to God comes because we declare Jesus to be master of our lives and believe God Actually raised him from death..

Does God forgive? Of course He does but His forgiveness is not the result of our faith in Him and in Christ ...The word is remission of sins and that invloves the removal or the taking away or the covering of our sins..
So Atonement is not at all limited , if even representative of forgiveness...

sassyT

Yor1 i think you are missing the Point of John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.


It talks about the Word being with God, the Word was GOD and was there in the Beginning with God. Clearly the Word here is personified and if you read further to verse 14 it clarifies why John personifies the Word and it turnes out the Word is Jesus. The Word became Flesh.
So the Word was God, and Jesus WAS God and has always been there with God the father from the Begining. Nothing was made with out HIM.

The Prophet Isaiah also prophesied that Christ is God.

Isaiah 9vs 6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

This Verse from the Old testament clearly establishes Christ as God.
"His Kingdom" denotes Kingship
"Judgement" Shows Jesus will be Judge and only God can Judge. Jesus IS God.

yor1

Sorry Sassy but these are interpretive renditions of the text you use..
John 1 and its point is not as much a rendition of deity but what Christ was to us..
The Isaiah
text is just one rendition which in the Hebrew does not read so king James as most like it read..
" wonderful in council is the mighty one the father of eternity and ruler of peace"
You will find that no New testament scholar uses this text to convey a sense of deity when directed at Christ..
Likewise the Matt text of " he shall be called immanuel" does not actually use the word that we use in English when defining the name." which means the mighty one is with us"
Not unlike Hebrew the Greek uses god differently from us.. Elohim meaning mighty one used of angels and kings and judges as well as of The Almighty..
In Greek god is used of others besides The Almighty and most times when referring to the Almighty uses the definite article' THE" sometimes the use of the greek word "Theos" is actually being used as an adjective..
The Jehova witness stance on John 1
The Word was God
they render
the word was a God
But Sharps rule as orthodox christian scholar says that the line should be read in structure different from the way it actually is..
The actual Greek reads
a god is the logos
The use most make of the text today is from Greek philosophic form.The Logos being the rational being and thereby translate the word Logos as a personal being..
But in fact the word logos is a masculine greek word and carries with it like in French masculine words a masculine ending..But its supporting text reverts to standard language and can be rendered like most neuter words
"IT"
So what is the point???
that Our present reading of John 1 is to infer that the writer is making a person out of the term LOGOS" 'the expressed thought" And that this is Johns point. but I do not believe that he is in fact doing this as the use of the names from the oT are not identifying the individual who carries them but are identifying the God the represent.
Immanuel was the name of an individual of the OT carried over to Jesus by Matthew..
The word becoming flesh and dwelling among us is exactly what Jesus did ..He became Gods word in Human form...but to claim this means that he himself was God is beyond the text..God in these last days has spoken to us by way of his son "according to Hebrews"
But it is still God who speaks who's word we are hearing through the image of the invisible..
And human theology that determines anything beyond the scriptures as the church of antiquity has done, takes us outside of the revealed truth and into human meandering..
Jesus is the son of God born of Mary..Who lived and died..No true od that I have ever come to understand could possibly die..God is eternal and is as the Scriptures say.The one true God..Any inheritance that Jesus gains or we gain as descending from God is not a declaration of his deity but of his worth..
Hence we are born of God not because of the deity of Jesus but because of the promise of God accepted by faith..The religious wherefores of theology do not change the simplicity of the Good news..
We are reconciled to God by the one Man Jesus The anoited of God..
To change the Gospel and require that any or all believe him to be God himself is to change the Gospel..No one was ever asked to believe this when any sermon was preached by the apostles..ever..
This being the case it makes very suspect any rendering that is made that The John text is declaring the deity of Christ and not just his calling as Gods perfect representative upon the earth.. the Mediator of a New covenant the mediator between God and man.
If indeed Jesus is God then the Catholics are correct we need a mediator between us and him before we can have a mediation between us the Father..
But as the scriptures say
it is the man Jesus that reconciles us to God..
The text " God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself...
Is not speaking of Jesus as himself but God as himself..
Jesus reconciles us to God not himself..He is the means of reconciliation the the one we are reconciled to..
So when reading any text one must be guided by the realities of the gospel not the theological pretexts..
Jesus is the expressed thought of god manifest..why? because he is subject in totality to the Almighty and thereby as he himself says..These are not my words but the words of him that sent me..
To then conclude that he is both the one being sent and the one sending kind of undermines the whole framework of the Gospel..As God he would be included as the sender and not as some suppose the other members of the godhead send him as if he is not a part of that sending also undermines the idea of this trinity concept that is presented that is beyond the understanding of man..

sassyT

Yor1

The text is simple and i think you are the one who is creating your own interpretation. Even if we take away the "He" it is still clear the Jesus is the word and therefore is God because it says the word was God. John makes it clear in verse 14 that the word is Jesus. So if the word is Jesus and the Word is God then Jesus IS GOD.

It simply says:
In the Beggining was the word
the word was always there in the Beggining with GOD
All things were Made throught the word
With out the word nothing was made
In the Word was the Light of men
Darkness could not comprehend the word
the word was GOD
the word became flesh
the word dewelt amoung us
the word's Glory was the only one begotten of the Father.

So Because John tells us the word Became Flesh and dwelt amoung us that imediately tells us that the word is Jesus.
So because john has revealed who the word is we can replace "the Word" with "Jesus" in this verse.

In the beginning was the Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. 2 Jesus was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Jesus, and without Jesus nothing was made that was made. 4 In Jesus was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend Jesus.

14. And Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

sassyT

Yor1
This is the Hebrew translation of Isaiah 9 vs 6
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;(councelor, Mighty God, Price of Peace)

7 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.
Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (1917)

This verse is from Jewish translation and it is evident that the Child that is Given has Diety. "His Kingdom" denotes King ship.

Onan

If Jesus was God, who sacrificed their only son for our sins?? If Jesus is God then why do we have passeges in the Bible of Jesus praying to God?? Why did Jesus ask God "why hast thou forsaken me" if he willingly went to the cross for our sins?? How is it even a sacrifice if he went into it knowing he would rise from the dead/of if God knew his son would rise from the dead??