death on the cross , a must

peters01alm · Jan 7, 2008, 06:29 PM

why did Jesus cried out to the Lord on the cross when he knew very well that it had to happen in order that the Scripture could be fulfilled ?

De Maria · Apr 18, 2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

You have obviously devoted a lot of thought to the question of why God permits suffering. But the question at hand is whether God required Jesus' death as a condition of our salvation. What do you think about that?

And I answered that question. Twice. But if you are referring to the question in the opening post. I answered the opening post back in message #8. Here it is again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by peters01alm
why did Jesus cried out to the Lord on the cross when he knew very well that it had to happen in order that the Scripture could be fulfilled ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

He was reminding the Jews of the prophecy that the Messiah must die:

Matthew 16 21 From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again.

And He did so by quoting a famous Psalm:

Psalms 21 2 O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.

Note how the Psalm goes on to describe Jesus' passion:

17 For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet. 18 They have numbered all my bones. And they have looked and stared upon me. 19 They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots. 20 But thou, O Lord, remove not thy help to a distance from me; look towards my defence.

My opinion hasn't changed.

Oh and Scotty, it is Psalm 21 in the Douay Rheims Bible.

Book Of Psalms
< prev | Psalm 21 | next >

Deus Deus meus. Christ's passion: and the conversion of the Gentiles.

1 Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David. 2 O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins. 3 O my God, I shall cry by day, and thou wilt not hear: and by night, and it shall not be reputed as folly in me. 4 But thou dwellest in the holy place, the praise of Israel. 5 In thee have our fathers hoped: they have hoped, and thou hast delivered them.

Douay-Rheims Bible, Book Of Psalms Psalm 21

There are slight differences in ennumeration between Protestant and Catholic Bibles.

Sincerely,

De Maria

ordinaryguy · Apr 18, 2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria
He was reminding the Jews of the prophecy that the Messiah must die:

So is the reason that "the Messiah must die" that God required it as a condition for forgiveness of sin?

De Maria · Apr 19, 2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

So is the reason that "the Messiah must die" that God required it as a condition for forgiveness of sin?

The verse "the Messiah must die" is a prophecy. But not prophecy as it is normally considered by the general public. In the Bible, prophecy means "the Word of God". That is why prophets speak the Word of God.

Ezechiel 33 33 And when that which was foretold shall come to pass, (for behold it is coming,) then shall they know that a prophet bath been among them.

Now, prophecy usually comes with an "if" clause. A clear example is the prophecy of Jonas:

Jonas 3 4 And Jonas began to enter into the city one day's journey: and he cried, and said: Yet forty days, and Ninive shall be destroyed.

But was Nineveh destroyed?

No. The populace repented of their evil ways and Nineveh was saved.

Jonas 3 5 And the men of Ninive believed in God: and they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least. 6 And the word came to the king of Ninive; and he rose up out of his throne, and cast away his robe from him, and was clothed with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published in Ninive from the mouth of the king and of his princes, saying: Let neither men nor beasts, oxen nor sheep, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water. 8 And let men and beasts be covered with sackcloth, and cry to the Lord with all their strength, and let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the iniquity that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn, and forgive: and will turn away from his fierce anger, and we shall not perish? 10 And God saw their works, that they were turned from their evil way: and God had mercy with regard to the evil which he had said that he would do to them, and he did it not.

So, just as Nineveh must be destroyed, the Messiah must die.

If the Jews had repented of their sin and acknowledged that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, then perhaps God would have forgiven our sin without Jesus death on the Cross.

But the point is moot. The Jews did not repent and they enlisted the Romans to crucify Jesus. And God used this evil deed to save the world from their sin.

Sincerely,

De Maria

ordinaryguy · Apr 19, 2008, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

If the Jews had repented of their sin and acknowledged that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, then perhaps God would have forgiven our sin without Jesus death on the Cross.

So your answer to the question is "Perhaps, it depends on what the Jews do"? That's interesting. Most Christians that I've encountered are more definite about it than that. They usually insist that Jesus absolutely did have to die in order to save us, and quote the book of Hebrews (9:22) that "without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin". I like your answer better than theirs, even though my own answer is "No".

De Maria · Apr 19, 2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

So your answer to the question is "Perhaps, it depends on what the Jews do"?

Huh? Since the event already happened, I don't really understand what you mean to say.

Quote:

That's interesting. Most Christians that I've encountered are more definite about it than that. They usually insist that Jesus absolutely did have to die in order to save us, and quote the book of Hebrews (9:22) that "without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin".

They would be correct, wouldn't they? Since it already happened then it had to happen. It is no longer a question.

If it were an event that had not yet taken place, then the question would still be open. But the question has been answered.

What might have been if Jesus had not died on the Cross is mere speculation. As I said before, it is a moot point.

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I like your answer better than theirs,

Thanks.

Quote:

even though my own answer is "No".

You're entitled to your opinion.

Sincerely,

De Maria

ordinaryguy · Apr 20, 2008, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

They would be correct, wouldn't they? Since it already happened then it had to happen. It is no longer a question.

If it were an event that had not yet taken place, then the question would still be open. But the question has been answered.

The question is why it had to happen. The usual answer is that it was because God required death as a condition of forgiveness. Your answer is that it was because the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and otherwise it might not have been necessary. It's the difference between an absolute and a contingent necessity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

What might have been if Jesus had not died on the Cross is mere speculation. As I said before, it is a moot point.

It's not about what might have been if he had not died, it's about whether God required his death as a condition of our reconciliation. The reason I like your "contingent necessity" answer better than the "absolute requirement" answer is that it allows at least the possibility that God could forgive and be reconciled to us without demanding the sacrificial death of an innocent person.



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