why did Jesus cried out to the Lord on the cross when he knew very well that it had to happen in order that the Scripture could be fulfilled ?

De Maria

The question of suffering. It is truly an important question. Why does a good God permit the suffering of innocent beings?

Like you, I once rejected God because of this idea, that God should not permit any innocent people to suffer. However, I had to face facts.

1. I became convinced that God exists.
2. I am convinced that God is good.
3. It is obvious that suffering exists.

Therefore, either God exists, He is good and there is no meaning to suffering in the world or....

God exists, God is good and there is meaning to suffering in the world.

If there were no meaning to suffering in the world, if suffering were useless, then I could not see God being good. But if suffering is useful, if suffering is not without meaning, then it must be because God is good.

1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:

Note the goodness of God. Not only does He instruct us to suffer to do away with sin, but He also suffered to give us an example to follow in His footsteps:

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

How many times have you met people who tell you that you must give 110% for their project, but they themselves don't get dirty at all for the same cause. But God is not that way.

So why do we suffer?

Well, our parents rejected God's goodness. Everyone seems to forget that Adam and Eve were born with every privilege. But they decided to accept Satan's word over God's Word. And Satan is not good. He doesn't care if we suffer needlessly. He wants us to suffer needlessly. Those who are under his influence frequently do suffer needlessly and if they don't turn to God during that suffering, they lose their soul as well.

2 Timothy 2 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.


Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria

No, it is not a parable. But it is an "archetype".

An archetype is a:
A symbol, usually an image, which recurs often enough in literature to be recognizable as an element of one's literary experience as a whole.
A Glossary of Literary Criticism

The first sin by Adam and Eve was their rejection of eating the fruit of the Tree of Life and preferring the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The Tree of Life is, of course, a symbol of the Cross wherein the Son of God was hung. It is this fruit which we eat:

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

Melchizedek served a sacrifice of bread and wine to Abraham:
Genesis 14 18 But Melchisedech the king of Salem, bringing forth bread and wine, for he was the priest of the most high God,

Jesus also provided this sacrifice:
1 Corinthians 10 16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

Abraham offered his son as sacrifice to God, but God did not permit it. God then prophecied that He would provide the sacrifice:
Genesis 22 6 And he took the wood for the holocaust, and laid it upon Isaac his son: and he himself carried in his hands fire and a sword. And as they two went on together, 7 Isaac said to his father: My father. And he answered: What wilt thou, son? Behold, saith he, fire and wood: where is the victim for the holocaust? 8 And Abraham said: God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son. So they went on together.


John 1 29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.

Note how the son carried the wood of his own sacrifice on his back:

John 19 17 And bearing his own cross, he went forth to that place which is called Calvary, but in Hebrew Golgotha.

Note that God would not permit Abraham to sacrifice his son...

Genesis 22 9 And they came to the place which God had shown him, where he built an altar, and laid the wood in order upon it: and when he had bound Isaac his son, he laid him on the altar upon the pile of wood. 10 And he put forth his hand and took the sword, to sacrifice his son. 11 And behold an angel of the Lord from heaven called to him, saying: Abraham, Abraham. And he answered: Here I am. 12 And he said to him: Lay not thy hand upon the boy, neither do thou any thing to him: now I know that thou fearest God, and hast not spared thy only begotten son for my sake. 13 Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw behind his back a ram amongst the briers sticking fast by the horns, which he took and offered for a holocaust instead of his son. 14 And he called the name of that place, The Lord seeth. Whereupon even to this day it is said: In the mountain the Lord will see.


But God so loved the world...

John 3 16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

And the blood of the lamb marks the doorposts of those whom God will save:

Exodus 12 6 And you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month: and the whole multitude of the children of Israel shall sacrifice it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood thereof, and put it upon both the side posts, and on the upper door posts of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh that night roasted at the fire, and unleavened bread with wild lettuce.... 13 And the blood shall be unto you for a sign in the houses where you shall be: and I shall see the blood, and shall pass over you: and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I shall strike the land of Egypt.

And God still marks us with the Blood of the Lamb:

1 Corinthians 5 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.

So, the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross is not a parable. But God prepared His People for this sacrifice a long time ago:

1 Peter 2 24 Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed.

Isaias 53 5 But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

ordinaryguy

I suppose the question of why God permits suffering is important, but the present discussion is about whether God requires either suffering or death as a condition of forgiveness and reconciliation.
I don't "reject God" because he permits innocent people to suffer. I reject the idea that God requires either death or suffering as a condition of reconciliation.

ordinaryguy

Yes, it's true that I only accept certain aspects of God as described in the Bible or any other holy book. I'm quite willing to live without the "avenues of the divine experience" that depend on the death of an innocent being as a condition of forgiveness and reconciliation.

De Maria

So, are you saying my input is not welcome?

Yet it seems to me my response is a direct answer as to "whether" God requires either suffering or death as a condition of forgiveness and reconciliation.

My response is that, "No God does not require it. Satan does. But God permits it in order to bring about a greater good."

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution", said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For "the mystery of lawlessness" is clarified only in the light of the "mystery of our religion". The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 385


That is wonderful. I'm sorry that I insinuated that you rejected God. It was simply the way I phrased the statement. The main reason for the statement was to reveal that I was once atheist and that was the main reason I turned to atheism.


So do I. I believe it is Satan who requires our suffering. I believe God permits it to bring about our salvation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria

No problem. I'm used to people disagreeing with me.


I'll take that as a compliment. I also have great respect for those people. I assume you are amongst them.


I love a challenge.


Lol!!! Are you kidding. This is probably the nicest criticism I've received on this forum and none of the others have been censored. In fact, I believe they tried to censor me, but their appeals backfired because, thanks be to God, the moderator to whom they addressed their concern is a reasonable man.


Just saying so, doesn't make it so. I hope you have some evidence to back up your contention.


No.


OK.


Without going into a great Bible study, although the book of Genesis does not say that the serpent is Satan, it is revealed in other parts of Scripture:

Apocalypse 12 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


That is true.


I can see how you could interpret it that way. However, we don't interpret God's Words as a lie in the literal version. But simply as a double entendre. They literally did "die" when they ate of the "fruit of knowledge of good and evil". But it was a spiritual death.

Anyway. Lets continue your view.


And therein is the lie. God does want them to have the knowledge, but not the experience.
Therefore, the Serpent, the Devil or Satan, the Father of Lies, did lie.


No. The Devil lied, God did forbid the eating of the fruit, but to keep them from experiencing sin and death of the soul, not to keep them from knowing about good and evil. And Adam and Eve never become fully aware of good and evil. Their nature is fallen and their intellect darkened. That makes it easier for Satan to have influence over their deeds.


But they did die. Their soul died, they become as living dead. God does cast them out because they have cast Him out of their soul, that is the dying death. They have chosen to no longer live with him and God permits them to leave.

And God does not punish their progeny, they have punished their progeny. Look at it this way. Lets say you inherit 1 Billion dollars. Then Satan comes along and tricks you into giving him those billions. You have nothing. Then you get married and raise children. Which of your children will inherit your billion dollars? Answer: None of them.

You have nothing to give. Your billion dollars have been taken.

The same happened to Adam and Eve. They gave away their inheritance. Their children can only inherit what they now have. A fallen nature.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.


Please quote me where I describe God as one who condemned all of humanity for a single act of disobedience?


You have mischaracterized the logic. The logic is true and wise. It is beautiful to behold. However, your twist upon it is false.

You want to put the blame on God. And that is fine. God is ultimately the Creator of everything.

Ecclesiasticus 11 14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God.

But God gave all of us a choice. He gave all of us free will:

Deuteronomy 30 19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

But that does not lessen the fact that it was the creature who denied the Creator. It was man who chose to do Satan's will rather than to do God's will. Therefore it was man who chose to suffer and to experience evil.


That, unfortunately, is true. People who have not converted to a love of God beyond love of self do not respond well to that doctrine. That doesn't invalidate the doctrine.

And there are many people who suffering learn to embrace God all the more, understanding that unless they do so, their suffering is all for naught. Better to suffer and to thereby help others spiritually, then to suffer and to help no one, not even yourself.

Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:



I don't know where the Museum of Tolerance is, but I'd like to go sometime to give the message of Jesus Christ.

As for you, do me a favor. Read the stories of the Saints. You might want to begin with Mother Theresa. See how the doctrine of suffering is so beneficial to those who suffer and realize that their suffering is not for naught. See how they light up when they are told that their suffering is a sign of predestination. See how they light up when they are told that their suffering indicates that God loves them as his own children.

Hebrews 12 6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. 9 Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.

Luke 16 20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, 21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.


Have no fear. I tend to be very up front. People seem to consider my words rude. I echo your sentiments however. If I seem to be offensive, I don't intend to be so. I am simply telling you what I believe:

Matthew 5 37 But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.


You also,

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria

That is true. Because that is where the blame lies.


That is true also. Everything. Absolutely everything ultimately comes from God. But God did not intend evil for us. Satan did and does. God now uses Satan's evil to bring about a greater good. Nor even for Satan. But God gave us all free will and we are not required to accept His goodness unless we want it.


That is true. God did create Satan. But God created Satan as good. Satan himself decided to become evil. It is Satan who chose to become God's enemy.

And so, God uses Satan within His master plan to bring about a greater good. God is vastly greater than Satan.

Sincerely,

De Maria

ordinaryguy

No, just that you answered a different question.
So God allows Satan to dictate the requirements for our forgiveness? Although I don't find it convincing, I will say that it's a theory of salvation that I've never heard before.

De Maria

I don't think so. I guess I answered it in a way you didn't expect.


Lol!!! Neither have I. There must have been something lost in the translation. Satan does not dictate the requirements for forgiveness. Satan simply causes suffering and pain. It is his specialty.

Job 1 1 And it came to pass, when on a certain day the sons of God came, and stood before the Lord, and Satan came among them, and stood in his sight, 2 That the Lord said to Satan: Whence comest thou? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it. 3 And the Lord said to Satan: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a man simple, and upright, and fearing God, and avoiding evil, and still keeping his innocence? But thou hast moved me against him, that I should afflict him without cause. 4 And Satan answered, and said: Skin for skin, and all that a man hath he will give for his life: 5 But put forth thy hand, and touch his bone and his flesh, and then thou shalt gee that he will bless thee to thy face.

6 And the Lord said to Satan: Behold be is in thy hand, but yet save his life. 7 So Satan went forth from the presence Of the Lord, and struck Job with a very grievous ulcer, from the sole of the foot even to the top of his head:

Satan desires our suffering without reason or cause. God permits it to bring about a greater good.

Job 42 12 And the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning. And he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. 13 And he had seven sons, and three daughters. 14 And he called the names of one Dies, and the name of the second Cassia, and the name of the third Cornustibil. 15 And there were not found in all the earth women so beautiful as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.

16 And Job lived after these things, a hundred and forty years, and he saw his children, and his children's children, unto the fourth generation, and he died an old man, and full of days.

Sincerely,

De Maria

ordinaryguy

You have obviously devoted a lot of thought to the question of why God permits suffering. But the question at hand is whether God required Jesus' death as a condition of our salvation. What do you think about that?