JoeT777,
Thanks for posting that
Fred

Yes, sometimes very much so!-In more ways than one.

JoeT

I'm actually torn. I want to know how a God who is so loving and caring, so forgiving, will damn his people for eating meat on Friday. I'm confused how we can actually let one group of people have so much control over our God given "free will" that will do what they say, when they say it and for how long they say. A personal relationship between yourself and the MAN upstairs is just that, a personal relationship. Who has the right to tell you what to give up in HIS name. And it bothers me that most Catholics that I ask this question to (eating meat on Friday) don't own a Bible and have no clue if that "rule" is divine or not! It's just something they do because they we told to.

What is a sin in God's eyes is found in scripture.

Not eating meat on Fridays is not a sin according to scripture, but was decreed to be a sin by a denomination of men.

Exactly right.

The problem is people read portions, because it helps their cause. Reading more will open eyes!
1 Timothy 4

Instructions to Timothy

1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

Opher:

Please clarify: are you saying that those who fast are heretics? Or, are you saying that those who don’t fast are heretics?

JoeT

Im saying that people only take bits and pieces to help their cause... You can take an section of a passage because out of context it says what u say... But words are omitted. The entire passage has to be read to be understood! Fasting and not eating meat are totally different. To fast is to sacrifice for a certain amount of time for a particular reason. But to not eat flesh of a once living creature on a Friday isn't fasting at all. You're still eating and nourishing your body with food. I think if you want to give up meat then do it, but please don't force your beliefs upon people who are using the free will God has given us. We can sacrifice something else for our Lord, anything... As long as our hearts and souls are in the right place and your personal relationship with the Man upstairs is just that; a PERSONAL relationship.

Apparently you haven't read this thread in its entirety. These points have been addressed repeatedly.

I actually have read the thread but I feel some points needed to be hammered home again!

So you are here to proselytize?

Opher:

Well OK, let's first take a good look at 'forcing' fasting on people. Is that your contention? When was the last time you went to a restaurant on Friday and was refused by the Catholic waiter to be served a hamburger, or any other meat product? How does fasting affect your faith (assuming its non-Catholic)?

Yes when people take passages out of context, a lie is being told. But, let's put fasting in full context. God said, “ Now, therefore, saith the Lord. Be converted to me with all your heart, in fasting, and in weeping, and mourning.” (Joel 2:12) I didn't utter these words. I didn't cut them short. And if you go to the book of Joel you'll see that I'm conveying the idea that God wants us to convert the heart with fasting and it isn't a contrivance. Now, if you don't wish to follow this, then maybe you'd follow Christ instead?

You do know that Christ fasted: “ And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry.” (Mat 4:2) This too is in context. However, since you're apparently not Catholic you are not obligated. But, this passage, like the previous doesn't say 'only Catholics need to fast', now does it?

In fact what Christ said was, “But the days will come when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them: and then they shall fast in those days.” (Mark 2:20) The bride of Christ is the Catholic Church. The groom is gone. So, what is Christ saying? Something about fasting when he's gone (not on earth)?

Not only that but Christ tells us how to fast, “But thou, when thou fastest anoint thy head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not to men to fast, but to thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret, will repay thee.” (Mat 6:17,18)

And Paul advises that since we're now Christians we should, “let us exhibit ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience… in fastings, In chastity … “ (2 Cor 6:4 seq.) I did shorten this one a bit, but I didn't want you to fall asleep.

St. Thomas quotes St. Jerome (Ad Lucin. Ep. Lxxi) speaking of fasting says: "Let each province keep to its own practice, and look upon the commands of the elders as though they were laws of the apostles." Therefore fasting is a matter of precept. (St. Thomas Summa II, II, 147, 3)

Boy, fasting must be a hard thing for Protestants not to participate in! But, I thought that Protestants were into the Bible only thing; do Protestants leave the fasting out? Just knowing that your Catholic co-worker is going home on Friday and not going to eat meat must be demoralizing. And this should really trample on your free will; I had a small piece of fish. I enjoyed it, and my toe nails didn't curl up from malnutrition. In fact if I fasted for a week without eating a thing, I'd probably be healthier. Does that step on your 'free wills'?

JoeT

Wow,
This has been very interesting to me a former Protestant who art meat on Friday an did not fast.
I had a small bowl of clam chowder for lunch and a few shrimp for supper and the reason I was eating fish was on my mind.
Now my question is those folks who were once Catholic and now go to a different denomination and who enjoy eating a nice steak or other meat on Friday during Lent, are they being sinful? That's those who think, "Now I'm not a Catholic so I don't need to follow the rules."
I wonder this because I firmly believe that a person who well knows and understands the Catholic faith would never leave it.
I also think that once a confirmed and practicing Catholic always a Catholic no matter what they think.
Am I off base on those questions?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Would it be better to proclaim the Words of the Lord? Showing glory to God in a spirit of love.
Is not the gospel, the faith to follow? And to suffer as a Christain, (1 Peter 4:16) the following and doctrine of Christ. That which walked the earth as Flesh in the Word..What are we to proclaim to our brothers? (Jeremiah 7:2)

Pharisees
A sect that seems to have started after the Jewish exile. In addition to OT books the Pharisees recognised in oral tradition a standard of belief and life. They sought for distinction and praise by outward observance of external rites and by outward forms of piety, and such as ceremonial washings, fastings, prayers, and alms giving; and, comparatively negligent of genuine piety, they prided themselves on their fancied good works. They held strenuously to a belief in the existence of good and evil angels, and to the expectation of a Messiah; and they cherished the hope that the dead, after a preliminary experience either of reward or of penalty in Hades, would be recalled to life by him, and be requited each according to his individual deeds. In opposition to the usurped dominion of the Herods and the rule of the Romans, they stoutly upheld the theocracy and their country's cause, and possessed great influence with the common people. According to Josephus they numbered more than 6000. They were bitter enemies of Jesus and his cause; and were in turn severely rebuked by him for their avarice, ambition, hollow reliance on outward works, and affection of piety in order to gain popularity.

Sadducees

1) a religious party at the time of Christ among the Jews, who denied that the oral law was a revelation of God to the Israelites, and who deemed the written law alone to be obligatory on the nation, as the divine authority. They denied the following doctrines:
a) resurrection of the body b) immortality of the soul c) existence of spirits and angels d) divine predestination, affirmed free will

Christian

1) Christian, a follower of Christ, The name was first given to the worshippers of Jesus Christ by the Gentiles, but from the second century onward accepted by them as a title of honor.. Believers of Christ (Acts 11:26) Suffer as a Christian (1 Peter 4:16)

You misrepresent the Pharisees and Jesus's attitude towards them. Remember that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy, not for their teachings. In fact, he praised their their teachings while at the same time warning others against following them in their hypocrisy. (Thus we are told to fast without calling attention to ourselves for doing so.) Note that included among the Pharisees teachings was an emphasis on oral tradition. This was Jesus's own religious background, the beginnings of rabbinic Judaism.

Also, since Acts was written in the first century and already records the fact that Christians were calling themselves "Christians", it seems odd that you would say that they accepted this label only in the second century.

Note as well that Scripture instructs the faithful to be obedient to the bishops. It is well within the competence of the bishops to encourage the faithful to join together in the small but shared sacrifice of abstaining from meat on Friday as an expression of solidarity with the poor and hungry and as a way of calling to mind our own sinfulness and need for forgiveness.

I have to disagree with you on this.. (Matthew 5:20) says that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to destroy Christ (Matthew 12:14) The Pharisees were never able to see the light of Christ, the blind leading the blind as it is written (Matthew 15:12-14)

We have to remember what simplicity of Christ is..
(2 Corinthians 1:12) (2 Coringthinas 11:3)

And as Christ told us that we walk in His ways, and in the spirit of love. That which is not of this world but one with Him. So we are not of this world and man, when we walk in the spirit of love with Christ. (John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.) (John 17: 19 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.)


Who is the light of this world in which we walk? Christ (John 11:9)

Because they are hypocrites. Mt.5 affirms the teaching of the Pharisees. The problem with the Pharisees was their hypocrisy, and this is why in Mt.5 Jesus says that the performance of the act alone is insufficient; the actions must be performed with the right intentions. If the inner man as not in accord with the actions undertaken, then one is a hypocrite. The moral, and spiritual, worth of our actions is not wholly independent of our intentions in performing those actions. A Catholic who abstains from meat on Fridays out of a spirit of humble obedience to the bishop and in order to be especially mindful of his own sinfulness and need for God's mercy is not a hypocrite. A Catholic who abstains from meat on Friday so that he can present himself to others as deeply devout, or who complains all day long about how hungry he is in order to advertise to others the fact that he is abstaining is a hypocrite.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything I said. Do you imagine that anything I said is at odds with this? Yes, Christ is the light. Any Catholic who says, or even thinks, otherwise is in grave error. Some posters here seem to forget that Catholics do these things not in order to distract them from Christ but in order to strengthen and renew their devotion to Christ. Again, any Catholic who says or thinks otherwise is guilty of grave sin. Catholics fast because Christ fasted and his Apostles fasted. The Church doesn't mandate that every Catholic abstain from all food because many people cannot do that. But Christ fasted for forty days in the desert. So for the forty days of Lent, Catholics have a sort of mini-fast on Fridays and are expected to sacrifice something as a token of their repentance, as a reminder of their sinfulness. Catholics "give up" something for Lent, typically something that they enjoy, as is appropriate since it is surrendered as penance. It is for each Catholic to make the decision, hopefully prayerfully, what to give up, what sacrifice would benefit their relationship with Christ by making them more attentive and receptive to Christ. And if any Catholic chooses to undertake a more demanding fast, he or she is more than welcome to do so.

Going without has a way of focusing the mind. And going without something physical has a way of focusing the mind on the spiritual. It also has a way of reminding us of all that we take for granted, all the many blessings that get overlooked or taken for granted in the hustle and bustle of everyday life.

There were more problems than that, though one was hypocrisy. The issues with the Pharisees identified in scripture are:

1) They may have taught many of the right things, but they did not do them:

Matt 23:1-3
2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
NKJV

2) Knowledge of the scriptures, specifically the gospel and failure to follow them, and kept it to themselves so the people had to come to the priests if they wanted to know what was right, which allowed them to get away with the next item (#3).

Luke 11:51-52
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV

No matter what they did, no matter what their intent, without Christ their righteousness (or any us) is not sufficient. That is because we have none of our own.

3) They created what was essentially an "ecclesiastical law" of their tradition which was in addition to scripture:

Matt 15:2-4
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
NKJV

But I also agree that their orientation when doing those things also needed to be right.

Agree..
And it was those traditions that became as leaven that Christ spoke of in Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

The Pharisees were never able to see the light of Christ, the blind leading the blind as it is written (Matthew 15:12-14)

No.. But it is at odds with the teaching of the Pharisees was my point.

No where do we put are faithfulness above our faithfulness in Christ Jesus. It is His way rather then man..