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As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.
Examine the way Israelites were saved from the Egyptians through the waters of the sea.The baptism in water symbolizes also the crossing of the waters of the sea.Still the Israelites had to follow the Lord in the desert to make it to the promised land,just like we are baptized in water to declare that we no longer are under the World,but we follow our Lord to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven.
We are saved by baptism in water but that is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it is only being saved from the World and its master.
The thief that was crucified with Jesus,made it to Heaven although he was not baptized.The World still had authourity on him and the World judged him and his penalty was ...death!
Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.
Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
God sent HIS SON
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
If we do not walk in righteousness we walk in sin of the flesh as filthy rags
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if "so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now "if"any man have not the Spirit of Christ,he is none of his.
Tom
Could't those two be one?
I mean after all, we see in our faith one and two being a matter of faith, like the unity of the Father and the Son or the unity of man and woman.
I am just throwing another point of view here, nothing more!
No, they could not. The Holy Spirit is not water. One can be symbolic of the other, but they are not the same.
Examine the way Israelites were saved from the Egyptians through the waters of the sea.The baptism in water symbolizes also the crossing of the waters of the sea.Still the Israelites had to follow the Lord in the desert to make it to the promised land,just like we are baptized in water to declare that we no longer are under the World,but we follow our Lord to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Let me repeat your words.
"The baptism in water symbolizes also...."
Yes! The water in baptism symbolizes - that is the point. Past that we can look at symbolic parallels, but the point is that it is symbolic.
Quote:
We are saved by baptism in water but that is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it is only being saved from the World and its master.
The biggest problem with this is that scripture does not tell us that it is water that saves us but rather the blood that was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.
Quote:
The thief that was crucified with Jesus,made it to Heaven although he was not baptized.The World still had authourity on him and the World judged him and his penalty was ...death!
So you are saying that there have been two ways to be saved - one through Christ and baptism and another without water, which is .... ??? - Please describe this second way to be saved through which the thief was saved.
If you are saying that his physical death was required because he was not baptized, you ought to visit a funeral home - it happens to us all, baptized or not.
The biggest problem with this is that scripture does not tell us that it is water that saves us but rather the blood that was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.
It is the faith in Christ that SAVES us.. the fulfill law of faith to answer HIS calling. HIS blood set us free from the curse of sin, and brought us HIS righteousness.
The calling to salvation is based on LORD one Faith one Baptism (Eph 4:5)
Does it REALLY matter? All of this is symbolic. Isn't it the authenticity of the spirit,(that is no secret to God )that really matters. All these other particulars are much ado about nothing. Splitting hairs, I'd say.
Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.
Jeff
Yes it is grace by we are saved just as by grace the Israelites were saved by the Egyptians.
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they prooved their love for God!
Jeff
Yes it is grace by we are saved just as by grace the Israelites were saved by the Egyptians.
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they prooved their love for God!
I agree with Adam its not through the grace of jesus we are saved it is the grace within us that saves us. Jesus just came to show us the way it is up to us to apply his teaching.
The parting of the red sea is a very good example of grace. As the Isrealites where cornored by the Egyptians they called unto God, and his response was why are you calling me, you have all you need within you.
Everything we need to obtain our salvation is alrady within us
Black ink is adam7gur - blue ink is homesell
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love. The theif on the cross did not "prove" his love by doing anything but believing. If I repent of my sins and the saving grace of God comes into me and then I die in a car accident hours later, I haven't proved my love other than by believing.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work. Why do you keep saying "make it" to the kingdom of heaven when the Holy spirit within us is our assurance that God will save us? Yes, we will (not have to) love God and our neighbor when we are saved. That is not our "work" Jesus said our "work"(singular) "is to believe on Him who the Father sent."
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land! They walked in the dessert for forty years because they disobeyed God and were not allowed to see the promised land
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they prooved their love for God! Like they had a choice? They whined and complained and asked to go back into slavery the whole time. Joshua and Caleb were the only two that got to actually enter into the promised land because they were faithful. Even Moses, because he messed up with the rock/water thing was only permitted to see the promised land from afar.
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