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Alright, I admit, I've stayed out of this thread simply because of the conflict that I knew was inevitable.... and judging by the rapidly growing pages on the Answer forum, I knew I wasn't wrong. But alas, here I am...
I read the first couple this morning, then skimmed the next few, then ultimately hit #9, and here I am.
I just have a question....
The OP asked "can a non-Christian do good in the sight of God? why or why not?", right?
Somehow this has veered off from the OP and tragically gone the way of "what is good" rather than "can they do it."
To the Christians on here (and I am one of your number), how can what's been going on here be classified as "good?"
"...whatsoever things are true, ...honest, ...just, ...pure, ...lovely, ...of a good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Phil 4:8
I think we've not answered the original question, but simply defined that man is man... he is capable of good or bad, no matter what his spiritual state may be.
"Good" without being tempered with grace can become sadly misunderstood.... and ultimately termed "bad."
Quote: Originally Posted by lobrobsterI was not directing it to anyone, and honestly I don't really see the ranting and raving in this thread, but did you ever come across those that have the bible in one hand, and scream that those who don't accept Jesus are going to hell, that gays are doomed. But it's not done in a loving way, it's done in an angry way. That is what I was referring to.
Yes, I've seen those people and now understand what you mean. They do seem to be preaching out of anger rather than compassion for the 'infidels'. But I honestly don't think their mindset is too far removed from someone like skygem who stubbornly (and foolishly), thinks he is right, everyone else is wrong, and that's all there is to it. It is this type of closed minded, bigoted thinking that spawns the hate you see from those preachers you talk about.
Quote:
I am sorry that I wasn't understanding your thoughts. I don't gladly accept what is in store for non-believers, I honestly don't even let my mind go there.
Please forgive me, but why is it that you don't let your mind go there? Could it be because you understand all too well that this eternal torture chamber your god has set up for the rest of humanity is morally apprehensible? I think you SHOULD let your mind go there! You should FORCE yourself to really think about it logically. Only then can you realize the absurdity of such an arrogant belief. I apologize for calling it arrogant Allheart, but what other word describes such a self righteous and privileged belief that has only YOUR religion being exactly right and enjoying eternal bliss, while everyone else burns in hell for eternity?
Yes, I've seen those people and now understand what you mean. They do seem to be preaching out of anger rather than compassion for the 'infidels'. But I honestly don't think their mindset is too far removed from someone like skygem. He stubbornly (and foolishly) thinks he is right, everyone else is wrong, and that's all there is to it. It is this type of closed minded, bigoted thinking that spawns the hate that you see from those preachers you talk about.
Please forgive me, but why is it that you don't let your mind go there? Could it be because you understand all too well that this eternal torture chamber your god has set up for over half the people who ever lived, is morally apprehensible? I think you SHOULD let your mind go there! You should FORCE yourself to really think about it logically. Only then can you realize the absurdity of such an arrogant belief. I apologize for calling it arrogant Allheart, but what other word describes such a self righteous and privileged view that has only YOUR religion going to eternal bliss and everyone else burning in hell for eternity?
Hi Lob -
I just will keep this brief as I am sometimes take things internally too deeply and it kills me to cause any upset and makes me so sad and sometimes overwhelms me and it seems the more I try to explain the worse I seem to be understood.
The reason my mind doesn't go there, is :
1) I am too imperfect ....I have way too much to correct.....I need to be more loving, caring, giving, kind, compassionate, understanding, unselfish.....before I can even think looking over to my "neighbor" and in a way stand in judgement of them.
That is what I meant. I am to imperfect to dare take a peak at someone else and tell them there future. And I know some will Say...."God said......." Yes, he did and he was speaking to me a sinner. I am a sinner. Period.
That is what I meant. And lob I know you don't mean any harm at all I can tell.
Alright, I admit, I've stayed out of this thread simply because of the conflict that I knew was inevitable.... and judging by the rapidly growing pages on the Answer forum, I knew I wasn't wrong. But alas, here I am...
I read the first couple this morning, then skimmed the next few, then ultimately hit #9, and here I am.
I just have a question....
The OP asked "can a non-Christian do good in the sight of God? why or why not?", right?
Somehow this has veered off from the OP and tragically gone the way of "what is good" rather than "can they do it."
To the Christians on here (and I am one of your number), how can what's been going on here be classified as "good?"
"...whatsoever things are true, ...honest, ...just, ...pure, ...lovely, ...of a good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Phil 4:8
I think we've not answered the original question, but simply defined that man is man... he is capable of good or bad, no matter what his spiritual state may be.
"Good" without being tempered with grace can become sadly misunderstood.... and ultimately termed "bad."
HC - you are such a wise girl and all of what you said is so very true.
I just will keep this brief as I am sometimes take things internally too deeply and it kills me to cause any upset and makes me so sad and sometimes overwhelms me and it seems the more I try to explain the worse I seem to be understood.
The reason my mind doesn't go there, is :
1) I am too imperfect ....I have way too much to correct.....I need to be more loving, caring, giving, kind, compassionate, understanding, unselfish.....before I can even think looking over to my "neighbor" and in a way stand in judgement of them.
That is what I meant. I am to imperfect to dare take a peak at someone else and tell them there future. And I know some will Say...."God said......." Yes, he did and he was speaking to me a sinner. I am a sinner. Period.
That is what I meant. And lob I know you don't mean any harm at all I can tell.
Allheart, please don't ever worry about upsetting me. I only ask that you be honest (with me, as well as yourself), in what you say, and I can never be upset at that. I still don't quite understand...
You say you need to be more loving, caring, kind, compassionate, understanding, and unselfish. Doesn't this demand that you think about all the eternally tortured souls?
If you haven't guessed it already, I used to be a Christian. It was exactly these types of problems/questions why I simply couldn't bring myself to believe anymore. I couldn't reconcile how a loving God could ever allow such an appalling fate for everyone else who didn't hold the same beliefs of my religion.
I couldn't accept many of the responses to this OP. Why a non-Christian couldn't do good in the sight of a loving compassionate God. It just didn't make any sense.
Lob - First, of course I beleive, God is pleased when any of us do good, ( Including non-Christians)
2) Please, I am being honest. Some people may question my sincerity but in my heart I am being honest as I can possibly be. I know I may appear to be a scambled egg . that's because I am. Meaning, sometimes a lot of people don't get me and I am usually odd girl out. Sometimes it is so lonely and I wonder why sometimes I think so different. My husband loves me very much, but gets very frustrated with my views and heart sometimes. He thinks I see good too much and gets very frustrated as he's still not sure where I came from .
Anyway, to be very honest, I don't often think about eternal tortured souls. My mind may wonder there and do you mean when someone first tells me they do not beleive in God, do I worry for them, yes I do and my heart is sad and I feel love for them and hope that they once again will feel God's love. Yes I do. But in no way do I feel superior to them. Feeling that way, I'm sorry to me is a sin.
See, it's not that my religion is superior to anyone. I think all religions are roads to God. I have said that many times.
Now I am Catholic, is what I beleive and some of what I say here would they disagree with me....probably...some of it...but they would still love me
Now I am Catholic, is what I beleive and some of what I say here would they disagree with me....probably...some of it...but they would still love me
I was raised in the Catholic faith as well. I'm sorry for trying to pin you down, but I'm sooo confused!
Imagine in the basement of your church people were being hideously tortured. How could you attend mass at this church every Sunday with a smile on your face knowing what was happening below in the basement? You seem like a nice person and I'm betting your conscience wouldn't allow you to. So why can you not apply this same logic when it comes to heaven and hell? You can't possibly think it's morally right that over half the people who have ever lived will be tortured forever and ever until the end of time.
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