Hello folks,

Here is a thread that has been closed, but you can still view that seems to address a problem similar to mine, a problem no one seems to believe! Please read it.

http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-tr...ays-16304.html

Here's my particulars:
I bought my dad’s not so old car and gave my 1990 Honda Accord LX to my daughter. Also, at that point, the Honda was no longer be parked overnight in the garage. Sometime soon thereafter, when the night-time temp dropped to around 45 degrees (this is LA, so it doesn’t get that cold, but apparently cold enough) or so, we started to see the problem the next morning. After about a 5 minute drive in the morning, we cannot remove the key from the ignition. We can turn it from position II to position I. Then, you are supposed to push the key in a little, allowing it to turn to the off position. When we have this problem, on cold mornings, it will not push in and therefore, we cannot turn it the rest of the way to remove it.

The car is fine after it warms up. If my daughter would just sit in the car for another 5 minutes, then it seems to then allow you to push the key in and complete the rotation but, as you can imagine, she doesn’t want to do that every early morning! Sometimes jiggling the wheel and/or key seems to help but mostly not and, when it does help, I think it is related more to the passage of time as the now-warming car becomes no longer cold.

Everyone tells me it is strictly a mechanical problem but the above thread (please read it), at least for a Honda Civic, suggests there is an electrical component, two solenoids that could be temperature sensitive. Can anyone tell me if this is true for a 1990 Accord also? If so, which solenoid is likely to be temperature sensitive? Is either of the solenoids easy to replace/fix? The problem is absolutely gone when the car is a little warm. Doesn’t it make sense that something like a solenoid would be the likelier cause, rather than something mechanical?

By the time I take the car to any locksmith or mechanic, it is usually warmed up enough that the problem is not there. One locksmith sprayed WD-40 twice and it did not help. Is it too late to use a silicone lubricant now? Is graphite better? I guess this all assumes it is, after all, a mechanical problem, as unlikely as that seems due to the temperature sensitivity issue.

The dealer wants to replace the entire lock assembly, which is about $450 US in parts and labor; too much for this old car and he won’t even guarantee that this will fix the problem. A locksmith started to remove just the lock cylinder itself, but after watching him struggle for 20 minutes, and when he said I’d have to leave the car – he said the screws that hold the cylinder onto a post don’t have heads (perhaps he doesn’t have a wrench that seems to fit it?), so he’d have to tap heads into them (scary) – also, the only replacement cylinder available was $20 from Pep Boys (Honda won’t sell just that) and it seemed to turn with difficulty even brand new – I told him to stop. I was afraid he might not get it back together again. And if this might not really be the problem, what a waste that would be!

I saw some things to try in that thread above, such as jiggling the gear shift. One mechanic said he saw a similar problem where, on the dash board both the park and drive light were lit and that, shifting it back into drive, then park again helped! But I don’t think it was due to temperature. I will try this, if jiggling the automatic gear shift position doesn’t help.

The spare key is a clever potential solution, but my wife insisted we put an alarm system (cheapie) in the car for my daughter and I don’t think the alarm will arm with the key in the acc position, which I think may be this very position roman numeral I, though I don’t have the car right now and the acc position may be a different position, one that is beyond the off position – I don’t recall.

Please help! Thanks so much.

TxGreaseMonkey

To me, it sounds like the tolerances in the ignition lock are so close that different temperatures between the key (warm) and the lock (cold) are the cause of the problem. Try a one-time experiment. Have your daughter place her keys in the refrigerator overnight and see if the problem goes away. If it does, try wraping a towel around the lock area overnight to keep it warm.

deanalt

You seem to suggest that temperature will affect both the key and lock in the same way, as if they are designed so that, as long as both are at the same temperature, they will work. This seems hard for me to believe. Why do you think that would be true?

Regardless, your suggestion to wrap the area in something that might keep it warmer may work, I suppose. I was hoping for a cleaner long-term solution for my daughter, especially since the ignition hole is in the side of the steering column and you'd probably have to wrap the whole column to keep it covered, unless a appropriately placed, super-glued piece of felt flapping down and covering the lock might do! But given that the lock is metal, maybe that wouldn't help enough.

I really appreciate your input and THANK YOU for any follow up, though i hope others will also chime in.

Dean

TxGreaseMonkey

You have what may be an "interference" fit, due to different temperatures. I'm not saying this is the correct explanation of what's going on but it may be. The key and lock tolerances may be so close that they are affected by differing temperatures. It may only take a few thousandths of an inch.

Most cars come with two sets of keys. Try the other set and see what happens or examine the key and see if you can see a wear spot or a spot that is hanging up and slightly dress it with a jeweler's file.

deanalt

I forgot to mention this at the outset. One of the first things I tried was a different key. Unfortunately, the different key was made from the older key. However, I recently found the original valet key which was hardly used at all. It had the exact same problem. That said, I could believe that an old lock may be slightly compromised by virtue of old keys being used, particularly if the old key is too often jiggled, once things got just a little bad.

I understand that the tolerances might be tight and that, if the lock gets cold, it's shape may change slightly, thereby making the key a bad fit. I just don't understand how making the key cold too would likely cause it to change shape in the same way. It's not like they are a matched set at any temperature - a design engineer doesn't assume, if the lock is frigid, the key will be too, so he should design for that. In fact, I bet if I heated up the key (not something I'd ask my daughter to do daily), I'd have a better chance; in that it would quickly warm up the lock! But perhaps my simple mind can't appreciate what you're trying to say.

Do you attach any credibility to the solenoids mentioned for the Honda civic on the original post? It just seems that there is some barrier to pushing the key in when the temperature is cold enough.

Thanks!
Dean

TxGreaseMonkey

Personally, I would get a new lock and key and fix it properly. To me, this is not a big, difficult task. This IS the cleaner, long-term solution:

Steering Lock Replacement

1. Disconnect the negative battery cable.
2. Remove dashboard lower cover and knee bolster.
3. Disconnect 5P connector from the under-dash fuse box and the 7P connector from the main wire harness.
4. Remove steering column covers.
5. Remove the column holder mounting bolts and nuts.
6. Lower the steering column assembly.
7. Center punch each of the two shear bolts and drill their heads off with a 3/16 in. drill bit. Be careful not to damage the switch body when removing the shear bolts.
8. Remove the shear bolts from the switch body.
9. Install the new ignition switch without the key inserted.
10. Loosely tighten the new shear bolts.
11. Insert the ignition key and check for proper operation of the steering wheel lock and that the ignition key turns freely.
12. Tighten the shear bolts until the hex heads twist off.

deanalt

Thanks so much! Not difficult for you - almost impossible for me (wihtout screwing up)! You did not answer my question about the solenoids, a reply that was within the first URL I originaly posted, a thread started by lava surfer having the same problem as me on a 1991 Honda Civic. Can I assume that you are in the it's a mechnical, not electrical, problem camp? If unsure, here is that reply to lavasurfer from augustknight - his answer was applauded by a kenkoh who later reported the same kind of problem. What do you think? Anyone else care to help?

Here's that reply (does anyone know if the shifter he is refering to is manual or auto, and if auto, if the shifter would be on the floor?):

It's one of two possibilities. Either the cable from the shifter has lost some tension and is only working sporadically or the solenoid is defective. I'm leaning toward the solenoid because temperature can affect the delicate switching mechanism and the warmer weather is expanding it enough to make the connection.
Often times soda or coffee is spilled into the shifting housing with can cause a gum up. It is fairly easy to remove the housing, being careful not to FORCE anything. Use a plastic putty knife available in the paint section of your hardware store. This will be more forgiving as you feel out where the clips are. Than look for any obvious foreign materials in the works. Than give it a couple of judicious squirts of WD40 or similar product (not anything oily, that will attract dirt). Each time moving the shifter to allow it to work in and dissolve anything sticky.
If that doesn't have any effect you may want to check the solenoids. One is in the shifter and one is in the steering column. If you don't feel comfortable with troubleshooting your electrical system be warned that you can create a far worse problem if you cook the on board computer. Good luck.

TxGreaseMonkey

I'm familiar with the systems and I'm not aware of any relays near the lock mechanism:

. Manual transmissions have a clutch interlock switch that's in circuit to a starter cut relay, affecting power to the starter solenoid (relay) and the main relay. The starter cut relay, however, is located on the left kick panel, near the main relay.

. Automatic transmissions have an A/T position switch (not relay), which is also called a neutral position switch, that controls power to the starter solenoid and main relay.

I don't know where this guy is coming from. Yes, put me squarely in the mechanical camp on this one! Go with the cleaner, long-term solution and replace the lock. Your daughter will thank you for doing the right thing and taking care of her.

deanalt

Actually, I have now found another thread with lots more suggesting a solenoid/switch issue, apparently near the gear shift, something designed to make sure the car is in park before the key can be released. Read this thread and let me know what you think, please.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...ed28f2f28439be

TxGreaseMonkey

Like I said before, on automatic transmissions there is an Automatic Transmission Gear Position SWITCH, not a relay. Regardless, the clean, long-term solution is to replace the lock. You think you will be able to replace the neutral position switch and not the whole lock assembly--I don't.

Keep me posted with your solution.