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what is the definition of 'take offs' with regards to a house plan?
what is the definition of 'take offs' with regards to a house plan? In other words, if you gave me take offs for my home design that you as an architect had made, what information would they have in them, how would you go about gathering the information for them, what info would you give to me as the 'take offs' information, and approx. how long might it take you to do the takes offs on a basic 1500 sq ft home? Several answers from several architects invited, as I'm wanting to be more sure I have a general consensus not just one person's opinion. THANKS!
Sorry, I wasn't getting updates on this post for awhile.
I wanted to let you all know this:
We specifically asked the architect who did our design, how do we know how many sheets of drywall we'll need, how much siding, how much electrical wire, boxes, etc? we were looking at the construction loan sheet we'd gotten from our bank and thought we needed to know how much of everything to ask suppliers to give us bids (MUCH later we realized suppliers are used to looking at the plans and giving a material take off and bid all in the same step) we hadn't even gotten to the stage of considering product choices or finishes yet. The architect told us specifically that this was called doing a 'take off.' We had never heard the term until HE used it to describe this listing of how much material we were asking about. he then (verbally) offered to do it for us. Once I found out he'd spent over 13 hours and wasn't done yet, I stopped him and asked him to give us what he had so far. He gave us then a list with the bank construction loan items with dollar figures filled in. I immediately asked him (in writing) where is the list of materials, for example, carpeting he had $750. I asked him how he knew which rooms we were carpeting and with what kind of carpet. (we hadn't discussed it) He replied (in writing) 3 bedrooms and closets and that price was for high quality carpet including labor. I got pretty suspicious at that point. (can any of you fill in the blank to say why without me saying so?) So I asked him specifically (in writing) "I feel like a school teacher asking: please, show your work. You had to have made a list of materials you got the quote on. You had to have gotten an actual quote from a supplier to fill in that dollar figure and I don't care in what handwritten form that might be in, I need to HAVE it as the supporting information of the take off work you say you did. And, if you are a professional, I doubt you have it written on some scrap of a napkin somewhere. I'd expect you have it on some piece of paper and it belongs with my plans and this list you gave me. If you don't have this information ready at your fingertips, then HOW did you come up with the prices?"
At that point he pretty much turned litiginous and replied: "You have no right to make any demand of me which is not specified in our contract. I tried to provide the preliminary estimate as a courtesy to you and now you think you can demand all manner of things not a part of our contract." He insisted we pay him for the 13.5 hours, put a lien on our property, and now we are in small claims court and I am continually researching (here and elsewhere) this to be sure I'm not the crazy one.
I am not a lawyer in any sense of the word, but it sounds like you have a couple of things going on here.
first, without knowing anything about the actual contract it would be difficult to comment, however, it appears you are paying the architect an on hourly basis - as opposed to a lump sum. Therefore, i believe you are within your rights to ask for some proof of the hours worked.
If the architect is refusing to give you proof of his hours worked, then i think he could be in breach of his contract. if the take-offs are outside of the contract then he wouldn't have to give you proof, but then you also wouldn't have to pay him - so in other words, if he agreed to do the work on an hourly basis then he should be able to prove he worked for the time specified, and he should also be able to provide you with the details you have asked for. you woulod then have to pay him on an hourly basis.
Second, it sounds like the relationship has been strained throughout the entire process, especially if things escalated to lawsuits over a simple 13 hours of work. it is an unfortunate situation, but perhaps a solution can be found. the bottom line is the contract will be the governing force here, so make sure you understand which services are to be included in the contract and how payment was top be rendered.
Actually, we originally thought this guy was great. He took our hand as first timers and talked a long-winded talk about how he knew so much about everything. Everything was what we wanted to hear... I even overlooked it when he designed a dryer vent w/ 17 ft run to outside wall (tho I made him fix it, as I'm an ex-firefighter) and I overlooked it when he always pressured us to pay his bill on the spot (tho contract said we had 7 days) as I have great credit and always pay my bills on time, so thought nothing of paying a bill someone had just handed me.
But... turns out we were just latest in his line of trusting folks who have been nailed by him. We found out--after the fact--that this guy has been grossly overbilling people --quote $3000 and bill $5000--we were quoted $4000 for 1500 sq ft basic 11 pages of houseplans and were billed (and stupidly paid) $6000 when he never even gave me an invoice, just verbally told me how much to pay at various increments. (Now you last post is really making me start to think!) And he's been engineering w/out a license (not simple stuff but things like major open-span trusses, etc. that evidently builders have been fixing on the job site now since 2005. I have one other client I found for whom he billed 'structural engineering' of several hours. And 2 more who had glulams with no means of support. But he's a sole prop has no employees and isn't licensed--or qualified-- for engineer. (yes, we've started complaint w/ licensing board)
That's why I've been working hard at understanding all this take off stuff. (I even came to read and understand the Precriptive Method for ICF so I could see how we lack support in our ICF home over wall openings. I have no rebar schedule whatsoever.) He projected how smart he was, and I feel bad questioning him. As more and more really unhappy clients start to surface, I see I've been a trusting soul (read as: naive idiot) And his stance with all of them has always been to immediately become as one client put it, 'less than cordial' the very second his authority is questioned one whit. he cuts loose one client and moves onto the next....
sounds like a very lame architect! hind sight is always 20/20 and it's unfortunate that you are learning this the hard way. these types of situations are always tricky, becuase your first instinct to trust is a nobel one and is the way it is supposed to be. obviously this architect of yours is preying on individuals like yourself, and needs to be locked up for fraud or something like that.
the fact that he has completely misrepresented himself as an architect should help your case. it is actually illegal to call yourself an architect if you are not liscensed... so i would think he would be in TOTAL breach of contract on that issue alone.
well, i don't have much lese to add... just stick to your guns and the truth will prevail. Feel free to ask me anything else and i will try to help out if i can.
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