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lonely_scared_confused
Feb 4, 2007, 05:30 PM
Ok... I got saved about 5 or 6 months ago and my boyfriend who used to be a very good christian encouraged me to.. well now my boyfriend is slacking off and has been purposely doing sins, and asks God for forgiveness, knowing that he will do it again.. and he thinks that just because he is saved he will still go to heaven and not hell.. my question is will you still go to heaven if you are saved and doing sins on purpose and asking God for forgiveness but knowing that you are going to do it again or will you go to Hell? Please help me! :confused: :(

carmex22000
Feb 4, 2007, 05:51 PM
I believe Jesus died on the cross to wash away sins and he did it for the World. BUT, if someone keeps sinning, all they are doing is risking a terrible, unhappy life while here on earth. God does things to punish his children. A loved one may pass early, get cancer, have a wreck, etc.

Please live your life,starting today, in a good Christian manner and read God's word and try to live by it and you will reap many blessing because the Lord knows you're trying to walk His way. Good Luck! :)

JoeCanada76
Feb 4, 2007, 06:13 PM
Reading Gods word is important. Meditating and praying daily is important. Yes, I do believe that we do get diciplined, just like when a child misbehaves and we punish our child to teach our child that something is not right, our Father in heaven does the same thing. Pray for your boyfriend. It is not up to you to save him. It is up to himself. You need to be strong in your faith and forgiveness and do not take part in things you think are not right.

Joe

Punkergurl13
Feb 4, 2007, 06:41 PM
Ok...I got saved about 5 or 6 months ago and my boyfriend who used to be a very good christian encouraged me to..well now my boyfriend is slacking off and has been purposely doing sins, and asks God for forgiveness, knowing that he will do it again.. and he thinks that just because he is saved he will still go to heaven and not hell..my question is will you still go to heaven if you are saved and doing sins on purpose and asking God for forgiveness but knowing that you are going to do it again or will you go to Hell? Please help me!!:confused: :(
I fully believe in god I gave him my life. And I know for a fact that god will never not forgive you. If you sinned no matter how severe the sin is, god will ALWAYS forgive you. Just believe in him and he will guide you through. God Bless!!

SoAlone
Feb 5, 2007, 02:45 PM
Ok...I got saved about 5 or 6 months ago and my boyfriend who used to be a very good christian encouraged me to..well now my boyfriend is slacking off and has been purposely doing sins, and asks God for forgiveness, knowing that he will do it again.. and he thinks that just because he is saved he will still go to heaven and not hell..my question is will you still go to heaven if you are saved and doing sins on purpose and asking God for forgiveness but knowing that you are going to do it again or will you go to Hell? Please help me!!:confused: :(
Sinning on purpose and then asking god for your forgiveness doesn't always garentee that he will save you and welcome you in heaven. Sinning on purpose is just wanting attention. But if you really do believe in god and take him into your heart and love him then yes he will go to heaven. Try getting him to go to church that will help too.

shygrneyzs
Feb 5, 2007, 04:42 PM
It is fairly common for those newly saved in Christ to believe that once they are saved, they are always saved. To purposely go against God's teachings, break a commandment, etc. is an act of willful sin. Which does not mean it cannot be forgiven - it can - but God looks at the heart of man (collectively speaking) and the true intent of the confession and asking for forgiveness. If I go out and steal, then ask for forgiveness, but go out and steal again, my whole petition is meaningless.

Joe is right when he said that you cannot save your boyfriend. You CAN pray for him. The rest is between your boyfriend and the Lord. Best to both of you.

sexybeasty
Feb 18, 2007, 05:42 PM
I notice a lot of answers from people who apparently think they never sin on purpose. Everybody does from time to time. That is a fact. Jesus died for the sins of the World. All we need to do for salvation is ask Jesus into our hearts, accept that He is the Divine son of God and in the trinity and also, get baptised ask forgiveness for all sins and share that you love Him and just believe. Simple.

Once our name is written in the Book of Life, it CANNOT be erased. That is God's promise. Stop worrying about yourself and your boyfriend. You do need to be less sinful for a more happy and blessed life.

Consider when you disobey your parents. Do they not get disappointed? Do they not punish? Well, you may get pregnant if you are having sex out of wedlock. You may get in a wreck if you are drinking and driving. God will not allow you to live in sin without punishment when you belong to him.

That said, can you truly not be your parent's child, no matter how you mess up? Well, the answer is no. YOU WILL ALWAYS BELONG TO YOUR PARENTS! The same is true of your father daughter ralationship with the Lord. Start trusting Him and doing right by the Lord because He does right by you. You have a place in Heaven but wouldn't you also want a blessed spot here on Earth too? Just obey and see how blessed you'll be. Count on it!

Marily
Jun 25, 2007, 12:42 AM
In the bible it's stated that " For if we wilfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin" Need I say more?

Hope12
Jun 25, 2007, 08:50 AM
************************************************** ****************
There is no reason to be scared or confused. But I on the other hand understand why you would be afraid scared, and confused.

We live in a world where many religions use fear tatics to control others. These methods can confuse us and leave us afraid, scared and confused.

The Bibel tells us that we are Created by God. He is our heavenly Father. Just like we obey our fleshly father, because we love him and want to gain his approval, we also obey God because we Love him and want to gain his approval.

As far as sinning, we all will reap what we sew. However we first must truly learn the truth about God. He is a loving and merciful heavenly Father, and if we sin he will forgive us. We though must try to not comitt the same sin again and again. We can pray for forgiveness and work towards showing God we are truly sorry.


This scripture comes to mind. “He will remember their error; he will give attention to their sins.” Hos. 9:9.

There was a major problem with Israel’s repentance. The people were continuing to practice sin. At Hosea 7:4, the people are likened to “a furnace,” or baker’s oven, evidently because evil desires were burning within them. In view of such a deplorable spiritual condition, did the people deserve mercy? Certainly not! What do we learn about repentance and mercy?

The warning example of the faithless Israelites teaches us that in order to benefit from God’s mercy, we must demonstrate heartfelt repentance. How is such repentance manifested? God is not deceived by tears or mere words. Genuine repentance is made apparent by actions. In order to receive mercy, a wrongdoer must completely abandon his sinful course and bring his life into harmony with the high standards of God’s elevated worship.

If your friend continues to sin willfully, then he really is not sorry for his sins. If someone came and continually lied on you and slapped you in the face, then turned around and apologized and two hours later came back and did the same thing over and over again. Would you truly feel in your heart he/she is sorry?
Enough said about that.

Now let’s talk about being saved. As might be expected in a world that thinks too highly of human philosophy, there are many views regarding human salvation. There are, for example,

1) Religious persons that think belief in Jesus Christ is practically all that is necessary for salvation.
2) Another view of salvation is that held by those who believe in universal salvation.
3) Finally we come to those persons that reject man’s need for salvation. In their eyes the shedding of Christ’s blood as a ransom sacrifice had no value. Not only is this view held by atheists but also by persons that claim to be Christians.

God’s written Word reveals that more than profession of belief in Jesus is required for salvation. Just saying that one believes is not enough. When Paul and Silas told the Macedonian jailer: “Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will get saved,” Acts 16:31 they were not limiting salvation to belief that Christ is the Redeemer. They knew that more was involved. Besides believing that Christ is God’s Son and mankind’s Redeemer, knowledge of the Scriptures is necessary as well as a willingness to follow Christ’s example. How can one know how to follow Jesus’ example without studying his birth, life, ministry, and death?

His faith in the heavenly Father was shown by his works of public teaching of spiritual truths that brought honor to his Father and comfort to the people. This fine example must be followed by those who say they believe in Christ. Their faith must be accompanied by similar works. This is pointed out by the Bible writer James, who said: “Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” Jas. 2:18.

When a person, on the basis of the Scriptural knowledge he has gained, has belief in Christ as the Savior whom God provided and shows that faith by his works, he can consider himself as being on the way to salvation. It would be a mistake for him to think that he is now saved and cannot fall. He must show by his endurance in the Christian faith that he is worthy of salvation. “Let him that thinks he has a firm position beware that he does not fall.” 1 Cor. 10:12.
What he is on the way to being saved from is not the torments of a fiery hell, for such a place exists only in the imagination of misinformed persons. God’s Word says nothing about eternal torment of lost souls in a fiery hell as being the punishment for wickedness.

Instead, it simply says: “The wages sin pays is death.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” “All the wicked ones he will annihilate.” Rom. 6:23; Ezek. 18:4, AS; Ps. 145:20
This means their punishment is non-existence. Just as a person before they are born are non-existent. God’s loving provision is salvation from eternal death. It means freedom from the curse of death that comes because of Adam’s sin. We who are truly repentant will display the qualities of repentance by not willfully sinning but yet if we do sin we can ask for forgiveness of our sins.
Salvation from death is a gift from God to those that obey him, not to those that disobey.

We will all reap the rewards of our actions. Remember it is what God says
that we must all believe, not what men say.

There are though principles and requirements that we must obey in order to receive salvation. For a person to gain salvation God requires that he exercise faith in Him and Christ Jesus. A person cannot expect God’s favor when he refuses to exercise faith in the Father as a Savior and in the One whom the Father sent to make salvation possible. It is written: “For ‘anyone that calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved.’” Rom. 10:13

This has to be done by faith, not only in Jehovah and his Son, but also in the truthfulness of his Word. “Moreover, without faith it is impossible to win his good pleasure, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” Heb. 11:6.
The faithless person does not change reality by his denying the existence of sin and the need for salvation. Although he may refuse to recognize it, he is still a sinner. “If we make the statement, ‘We have no sin,’ we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.” 1 John 1:8

When a person exercises faith in God’s written Word as being true he will acknowledge that he is in a sinful state because of Adamic sin and is in need of a Redeemer. He will show repentance for his sins against God because of his imperfection. “True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent.” Acts 17:30.

It is only right that the Creator should require obedience from man. In times past those that obeyed him were the ones that he favored. It is no different today. Salvation through the coming war of Armageddon and from death depends upon obedience to God and to His son, Jesus Christ, whom he has anointed to be earth’s ruler. This is shown at Hebrews 5:9, which says regarding Christ: “After he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.” Here again the Scriptures show that salvation is limited and not universal.

Endurance in the way to life is also a requirement for salvation. It does no good if a person starts on a faithful course of obedience to God but fails to continue on it. He must remain faithful as long as he lives, even when his faithfulness brings the threat of death. “But he that has endured to the finish is the one that will be saved.” Matt. 24:13.

A person must manifest his faith in the manner Christ did by dedicating himself to God, symbolizing that dedication by water immersion, and making public proclamation of the truth. He must be a teacher of God’s Word and purposes as Jesus was. If you say you follow Jesus then we must do the work that Jesus did. We must tell others and teach others God’s way, just as Jesus himself did. He cannot remain silent, thinking that belief alone is sufficient for salvation. Silence is not God’s way to it.

“For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.”—Rom. 10:10.

Remember, think about this, and then ask yourself, was my friend ever really saved? Did he really have salvation? If not, then what you first need to do is show him the truth of God’s word and show him that “Once saved always saved” Does not stem from the word of God but from man’s idea’s or private interpretations of what God’s word says. I personally do not believe in the practice of “once saved always saved.”

That is why you friend feels he can do whatever he chooses to do and he is still saved. If that were the case then a person can be saved and then go steal and kill and still be saved. No it does not work that way. There are definite requirements that we all must meet in order to receive the salvation. I hope you will truly sit down and read these scriptures I have quoted from your own copy of the Bible and see for yourself, that one needs to do much more then say they are saved because they believe in Jesus Christ as their savior. Also willful sin never goes without reaping it’s consequences.

Take care,
Hope12

Just my understanding of what the scriptures say.
:)

speechlesstx
Jun 25, 2007, 09:27 AM
I hope you will truly sit down and read these scriptures I have quoted from your own copy of the Bible and see for yourself, that one needs to do much more then say they are saved because they believe in Jesus Christ as their savior. Also willful sin never goes without reaping it’s consequences.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31 KJV

So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." NKJV

They replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with your entire household." NLT

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.” NIV

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” ESV

They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." NASB

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." RSV

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house. ASV

And they said, `Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved -- thou and thy house;' Young Literal Translation

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house. Darby

But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Douay-Rheims

And last but not least, "They said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will get saved, you and your household." New World Translation

So which of these mistranslated the scriptures?

Hope12
Jun 25, 2007, 04:31 PM
Hello SpeechlessTX,

I totally agree that the scripture below is not mistranslated. The scripture is correct but the interpretation of men as to it’s meaning is what I disagree with.
Acts 16:30, 31, RS: “‘Men, what must I do to be saved?’ And they [Paul and Silas] said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’”
Think about this is that all man has to do or is it that men take that scripture and give it the wrong meaning when it is read in context with other surrounding scriptures?
If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly they would.

Now notice other scriptures:
Jude 1:5 (New King James Version)
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
(What happened here they were saved and yet destroyed after?)

Matthew 24:13 (New King James Version)
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
(So a person’s final salvation is not determined at the moment that he begins to put faith in Jesus, but it takes enduring to the end to be saved.)

Philippians 2:12 (New King James Version)

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
(This scripture in Philippians was addressed to “the saints,” or holy ones, at Philippi, as stated in Philippians 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured.)

Hebrews 10:26-27 (New King James Version)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
(Here the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what sins a person may commit after he is “saved” he will not lose his salvation. It encourages faithfulness. Take a look also at Hebrews 6:4-6, where it is shown that even a person anointed with holy spirit can lose his hope of salvation. There goes the idea of once saved always saved).

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God’s undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.)

Hebrews 5:9 (New King James Version)
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
(Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are “saved through faith”? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine. So we need to believe in Jesus and be obedient to what he tells us to).


James 2:14; James 2:26 (New King James Version)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

(A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)

If this is not so, then why would these scriptures be in the Word of God.

Take care,
Hope12

Just my understanding of the scriptures.

laurenjd
Jun 26, 2007, 08:52 AM
1 John 5:18 "...anyone born of God does not continue to sin..."

I've known a lot of people who sin purposely saying they'll just repent afterwards. But from experience, I've learned that only God can deal with these people. We are simply to love and lift others in prayer, and that allows the Holy Spirit to do the work he needs to do. Only God knows the heart of a person, so only He knows how to correctly deal with these matters.

Matt. 22:39 "...love your neighbor as yourself..." This was Jesus second greatest commandment.

Just love and let God do the work! It's easier that way anyway!

GraceAndKudos
Jul 2, 2007, 04:25 AM
Philippians 2:12-The apostle Paul councels us to 'keep working out our own salvation with fear and trembling'... Why “keep working” and why with “fear and trembling,” if ‘once saved, always saved’?
Another point to note is what Matthew 24:13 says-“He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.”
I hope that covers it. All you can do is encourage him with your own good example. For as Galatians 6:5 says -"each one will carry his own load".
:)
A

Tessy777
Jul 8, 2007, 07:59 AM
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31 KJV

So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." NKJV

They replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with your entire household." NLT

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.” NIV

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” ESV

They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." NASB

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." RSV

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house. ASV

and they said, `Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved -- thou and thy house;' Young Literal Translation

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house. Darby

But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Douay-Rheims

And last but not least, "They said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will get saved, you and your household." New World Translation

So which of these mistranslated the scriptures?
Speechless, just wanted you to know... I'm speechless... lol... GREAT RESPONSE!!

KevinH777
Jul 9, 2007, 02:34 AM
Ok...I got saved about 5 or 6 months ago and my boyfriend who used to be a very good christian encouraged me to..well now my boyfriend is slacking off and has been purposely doing sins, and asks God for forgiveness, knowing that he will do it again.. and he thinks that just because he is saved he will still go to heaven and not hell..my question is will you still go to heaven if you are saved and doing sins on purpose and asking God for forgiveness but knowing that you are going to do it again or will you go to Hell? Please help me!!:confused: :(

Only God knows what is truly in our hearts and He is the judge of all man and "each of us will give an account of himself to God." (Romans 14:12) It is true that a person is not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but the Bible tells us that if a person has come to faith in Christ, they are a new creation "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

That does not mean a Christian will no longer sin, but now has the power (through the Holy Spirit and the Word - the sword of the Spirit) to overcome sin. Whether you BF is a Christian or not is between him and God and whether he is going to heaven or hell is up to God. "Sinning on purpose" is not what God's Word commands of the Christian.

God forgives (1 John 1:9) and He also disciplines His children (Hebrews 12:1-11).

Romans 6 is a good place to turn to understand how a Christian is to view sin (you may want to show these verses to him and pray together):

Romans 6:1-14

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

1 John 2:15-17:

15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

Ephesians 4:22-24:

22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:1-7:

1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Here is an article that may be helpful: Spiritual Growth (http://www.new-testament-christian.com/spiritualgrowth.html)

God Bless!

Starman
Jul 9, 2007, 12:15 PM
I don't see anyone here claiming that they never sin on purpose. All I see is people pointing out that we shouldn't get into the nasty habit of sinning on purpose simply because we think God will always forgive us no matter how we choose to behave-a concept which is totally unscriptural.

Hebrews 10
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
NIV

BTW

There is much more involved in believing in the Lord Jesus Christ than a mere statement. Here is an example of people verbally acceping Jesus as savior but behaving in a way that makes them enemies of Christ.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils ? And in thy name done many wonderful works ? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity." - Matt. 7:21-23.

Notice that Jesus wants nothing to do with such people and tells them to keep their distance.

Tessy777
Jul 9, 2007, 01:08 PM
I don't see anyone here claiming that they never sin on purpose. All I see is people pointing out that we shouldn't get into the nasty habit of sinning on purpose simply because we think God will always forgive us no matter how we choose to behave-a concept which is totally unscriptural.

Hebrews 10
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
NIV

BTW

There is much more involved in believing in the Lord Jesus Christ than a mere statement. Here is an example of people verbally acceping Jesus as savior but behaving in a way that makes them enemies of Christ.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils ? and in thy name done many wonderful works ? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity." - Matt. 7:21-23.

Notice that Jesus wants nothing to do with such people and tells them to keep their distance.
Starman,

I agree that there is a difference in knowing "about" Jesus and believing "about "Jesus and having a personal relationship with Him. Having said that, notice what the Lord says.. "Depart from me.....I NEVER knew you".. not I knew you once but you messed up so I dropped you... nope... These are people who were never saved to begin with.

KevinH777
Jul 9, 2007, 02:53 PM
Starman,

I agree that there is a difference in knowing "about" Jesus and believing "about "Jesus and having a personal relationship with Him. Having said that, notice what the Lord says.."Depart from me.....I NEVER knew you"..not I knew you once but you messed up so I dropped ya...nope....These are people who were never saved to begin with.

Starman & Tessy,

You both make solid points in the last 2 posts. I think a lot of people are deceived by religion (I am a good person or I pray and ask God for forgiveness) or think they are goind to heaven because they said a prayer accepting Jesus as their Savior. A disheartening thought about this - it may not be entirely their fault. There are a lot of churches ("seeker") and individuals preaching a false Gospel, "just say this prayer and you will go to heaven". It is sad that people (who may have good intentions) are actually misleading people with the wrong message. That is why your statement Tessy and the verses you quoted Starman ring so true. We all need to be praying for lost souls; that not only they would be presented the true Gospel, but God would give them the faith to understand it clearly and accept it.

People need to understand the seriousness of their sin (Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23) before a holy, just, and righteousness God - the Creator of the universe. God's wrath is constantly being revealed against sin and no one has an excuse for not glorifying God and thanking Him (Romans 1:18-21). The church and individuals need to be preaching the doctrine of sanctification right along with salvation.

There are false teachers in the church preaching a false Gospel. "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:1-2). That is why it is so important that people do not believe everything they hear someone else say (even in a church), 1 John 4:1, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." It is important to read and study the Word for yourself, pray, and allow God's Spirit to give you wisdom and understanding.

As you said Tess, there are people who think they are saved but are really not, and that fits right in with Satan's plan, to deceive people. Standing behind every false teacher is Satan, "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

Philippians 2:12-13:

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Yes, salvation is more than just a prayer, we need to work out our salvation, not earn because Jesus already took care of that (Romans 5:8). Working out our salvation is understanding that we were dead in our transgressions, "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." (Ephesians 2:1-2). But because of God's amazing grace, mercy and love He sent His Son to pay the penalty for our sins (John 3:16). Working out your salvation is each day remembering what God has done for you; He has rescued you from eternal death to eternal life, John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." What does He command in return? "Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." (1 Peter 1:13-16)

As we work (pray, Bible study, church, fellowship, fruit of the Spirit -Galatians 5:16-26) at becoming more like Christ or becoming holy, which means to be different or set apart (different from how you used to live, different from the world around you); God will work in us through His Spirit, "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)

Note: Regarding false teachers, I am not saying that every church, and every time you set foot in one, heresy is being preached. I am simple stating that we need to be mindful of it and when we are at church listening to a sermon or at a Bible study, we need to have our Bible reading right along. Then going over it through the week and praying to God for wisdom and understanding. Unfortunately, there are false teachers and people listening to them who take every word "they" preach as the Word of God.

I praise God and thank Him each day for my salvation! I am not perfect nor will I ever be, but I know that I am forgiven and I know that God gives me the strength and the power to overcome sin. That is the battle I face each and every day (flesh vs. spirit).

1 Timothy 11:12 "11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses."

"Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23

Blessings in Christ,

Kevin

Starman
Jul 9, 2007, 10:49 PM
Starman,

I agree that there is a difference in knowing "about" Jesus and believing "about "Jesus and having a personal relationship with Him. Having said that, notice what the Lord says.."Depart from me.....I NEVER knew you"..not I knew you once but you messed up so I dropped ya...nope....These are people who were never saved to begin with.

I agree that these were people who were hipocrites from the beginning. The point is that they are rejected by Jesus from the outset because of there behavior. In short, their claims of being saved forever simply because they CLAIM to accept Jesus and perhaps CLAIM to be saved because of it are invalidated by their way of life. A very simple concept which seems to evade Speechless who seems to feel that the Ransom sacrifice of Jesus is merely a ticket for sinning and getting off scott free. Now THAT is a serious twisting and mangling of the simple clear message Jesus and his Apostles teach.

2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them."

Once Saved, Always Saved (http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyK_AIJNGtuMAQIZrCqMX;_ylu=X3oDMTBvdmM3bGl xBHBndANhdl93ZWJfcmVzdWx0BHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=11n6a7igb/EXP=1184133696/**http%3a//www.trosch.org/ant/saved.htm)

Tessy777
Jul 10, 2007, 05:45 AM
Starman,

NO. they weren't just hypocrites from the beginning. They Had NO relationship with Him, HE NEVER KNEW them. Never means.. NEVER.

Consider the man in I Corinthians who was living with his Step mother as his wife. Was he sinning on purpose?. yes. Does Paul call him a unbeliever that is lost and going to hell because he sinned on purpose? NO! He called for the Church in Corinth to discipline him so that he would repent, and come to his senses. He even went so far as to call him wicked. He said this and I am paraphrasing 1 Corinthians 5:.. look this guy is knee deep in sin, stop acting like nothing is going on, do not fellowship with him, Let Satan have at them. "to deliver such an one onto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, (get this Starman) ...THAT THE SPIRIT may be SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus. The man was obviously saved and was going to continue to be saved but the Church was called to deliver him unto Satan.

I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit that minute I believed. I find NO scripture that states He pops out of me..when i totally CHOOSE to screw up and I do. In fact, I have a promise that Jesus will never leave me or forsake me...i believe it is translated..I will NEVER, no NEVER, no NEVER, leave you or forsake you. When Jesus says NEVER...He means NEVER. You say, "yes well, you can Leave HIM"... and I say to you... YES and I point to that verse and I say... but he says NEVER! I'm so glad I don't have to count on me.

kentuckywoman
Jul 10, 2007, 03:25 PM
Ok...I got saved about 5 or 6 months ago and my boyfriend who used to be a very good christian encouraged me to..well now my boyfriend is slacking off and has been purposely doing sins, and asks God for forgiveness, knowing that he will do it again.. and he thinks that just because he is saved he will still go to heaven and not hell..my question is will you still go to heaven if you are saved and doing sins on purpose and asking God for forgiveness but knowing that you are going to do it again or will you go to Hell? Please help me!!:confused: :(
What really matters to Christians is what the Bible says about the matter.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Starman
Jul 10, 2007, 07:13 PM
1 John 5:18 "...anyone born of God does not continue to sin..."

I've known alot of people who sin purposely saying they'll just repent afterwards. But from experience, I've learned that only God can deal with these people. We are simply to love and lift up others in prayer, and that allows the Holy Spirit to do the work he needs to do. Only God knows the heart of a person, so only He knows how to correctly deal with these matters.

Matt. 22:39 "...love your neighbor as yourself..." This was Jesus second greatest commandment.

Just love and let God do the work! It's easier that way anyway!



Telling others about God's requirements for salvation is a Christian duty despite the fact that Christians can't read the hearts of the listeners. It is also an expression of loving neighbor as self.


Matthew 28:
19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

NWT

Starman
Jul 10, 2007, 07:50 PM
Tessy777


NO. they weren't just hypocrites from the beginning. They Had NO relationship with Him, HE NEVER KNEW them. Never means.. NEVER.

Of course they never had any approved relationship with Jesus.
Can you please show me where I said that they had?


Consider the man in I Corinthians who was living with his Step mother as his wife. Was he sinning on purpose?. yes. Does Paul call him a unbeliever that is lost and going to hell because he sinned on purpose?

I didn't say that purposeful sin inevitably leads to permanent condemnation.
Sinning on purpose is part of our present human fallen condition and is beyond our meager efforts to avoid. Such sins are covered by the Ransom sacrifice. But certain unrepentant habitual sinning by certain individuals is not.

Tessy777
Jul 11, 2007, 06:34 AM
Tessy777



Of course they never had any approved relationship with Jesus.
Can you please show me where I said that they had?



I didn't say that purposeful sin inevitably leads to permanent condemnation.
Sinning on purpose is part of our present human fallen condition and is beyond our meager efforts to avoid. Such sins are covered by the Ransom sacrifice. But certain unrepentant habitual sinning by certain individuals is not.

Starman... dude,

You DIDN't say they had a approved relationship with Jesus, you IMPLY it when you bring that verse into this topic. This is about people who were saved and then loose their salvation. (something that CANNOT be done.) So, I maintain, if you bring that verse into this topic... then I'm going to tell you that they NEVER knew Jesus and therefore your point is MOOT.

Oh OK.. so you didn't say that "purposeful sin inevitably leads to permanent condemnation", but could you please give me the verse that lets us know exactly when the Holy SPIRIT who is SEALED into a TRUE believer... walks away? (says... "you know what, this man has just gone too far and I'm OUTTTA here") Cuz.. gosh dude... I haven't been able to locate that one. I have found one that says I WILL NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE YOU... but can't find the one you speak of. Unless of course, it is in the Book of.. STARMAN... my bible doesn't have that book... lol.;)

Starman
Jul 11, 2007, 06:06 PM
Starman...dude,

You DIDN't say they had a approved relationship with Jesus, you IMPLY it when you bring that verse into this topic. This is about people who were saved and then loose their salvation. (something that CANNOT be done.) So, I maintain, if you bring that verse into this topic...then I'm gonna tell you that they NEVER knew Jesus and therefore your point is MOOT.

Oh ok..so you didn't say that "purposeful sin inevitably leads to permanent condemnation", but could you please give me the verse that lets us know exactly when the Holy SPIRIT who is SEALED into a TRUE believer...walks away? (says.... "you know what, this man has just gone too far and I'm OUTTTA here") Cuz..gosh dude...i haven't been able to locate that one. I have found one that says I WILL NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE YOU...but can't find the one you speak of. Unless of course, it is in the Book of ..STARMAN... my bible doesn't have that book...lol.;)


Book of Starman?

Galatians 1:8-9, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Revelation 22:18-19, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."


Holy Spirit

God's spirit doesn't dwell in minds that are purposefully and unrepentantly dedicated
To do evil. That is totally YOUR concept and not God's since he tells us that falling away o0r becoming alienated from grace is possible.

Galatians 5:4
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

1 Corinthians 9:27
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Revelation 2:10
10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

(New International Version)

Of course the once saved always saved will say that such scriptures along with dozens of others which tell Christians to watch themselves lest they anger God and lose out on life no longer apply to them. Unfortunately, the scriptures which warn us to be careful lest we wind up on the Devil's side of the issue were inspired and written AFTER Jesus died for our sins. If indeed these scriptures don't mean what they say to a person who feels he can do nothing wrong to lose out on life, then THAT person is writing his or her own version of the Bible.


Freedom of Choice

Not always, but in some cases habitual unrepentant sinful behavior constitutes a rejection of the Ransom sacrifice. In such cases God respects our freedom to choose since freedom of choice is our God given right and doesn't vanish via once we become Christians. Indeed, if it did, then becoming a Christian would be tantamount to dehumanization, something that God would never do to his servants.

The holy spirit doesn't deprive a person of free will. The holy spirit strengthens, directs,
Enlightens, enables, us to do things impossible to do by ourselves, such as endure persecution, have patience, show love and manifest all the fruits of good Christian behavior. But one thing that the holy spirit doesn't do is force a person to remain a Christian even though the person has chosen to use his God-given free will to renounce his faith and chooses to demonstrate it by purposefully living an anti-Christian pro-Devil lifestyle.

About the questioner

If indeed the questioner is asking based on his belief that he can't lose out on life due to willful, unrepentant demonically approved conduct, then why even ask the question? Actually, that he is moved to ask indicates clearly that he isn't sure if his conduct will divest him of his approved condition before God. Since he has doubts, then, in all conscience, I direct him to scriptures which show clearly that God does care deeply on how we behave and that behavior is the basis for rejecting.

Here is informative website on the subject.

Eternal Security is FALSE (once saved always saved, perseverance of the saints) (http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/cat1c.htm)

Actually, the only spirits which the Bible describes as forcing people to do what they don't want to do are rebel spirits or demons.

BTW
God remains faithful as long as the person doesn't choose to reject him and he is the only one qualified to know when that has happened.

Tessy777
Jul 11, 2007, 07:28 PM
Starman... Dude,

The book of starman... was obviously a joke. See, God gave ME a sense of humor.. obviously.. YOU didn't get one... ok.. I get it.

I do not own anyone that calls themselves a Christian and yet continues to habitually sin... a Christian.. so please don't tell me what my "concept" is. K?

And last but not least... where Sin abounds Grace much more abounds... and my entire, entire point to YOU was your last by the way line... give me the book and verse dude! Back it up.

Starman
Jul 12, 2007, 04:33 PM
Starman... Dude,

The book of starman... was obviously a joke. See, God gave ME a sense of humor.. obviously.. YOU didn't get one... ok.. i get it.

Sorry if I offended you. I was merely trying to clarify my position in reference to scripture.


I do not own anyone that calls themselves a Christian and yet continues to habitually sin... a Christian.. so please don't tell me what my "concept" is. K?

I know that you don't own anyone who calls himself a Christian and yet continues to habitually sin since slavery is now against the law. : )



And last but not least... where Sin abounds Grace much more abounds...
and my entire, entire point to YOU was your last by the way line... give me the book and verse dude! Back it up.

True, grace does abound. But it's not unconditional.

Is Grace Unconditional? (http://members.aol.com/thegospelm/tgm/t11-98-3.htm)

BTW
You'll find plenty of scriptures at the links I provide if scriptural support is really what you are seeking.

Tessy777
Jul 12, 2007, 06:03 PM
Starman,

Glad to see you DO have a sense of humor... I don't own anyone dude and you knew what I was saying.. ;) but I liked that comment.

We will agree to disagree. You are a believer and I appreciate the knowledge that you have. :)

Starman
Jul 12, 2007, 07:01 PM
Starman,

glad to see you DO have a sense of humor....I don't own anyone dude and you knew what i was saying..;) but i liked that comment.

We will agree to disagree. You are a believer and I appreciate the knowledge that you have. :)

As a believer in Jesus' Ransom sacrifice I apreciate you as well Tessy.
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for trhe feedback.

dreamguy
Jul 12, 2007, 07:27 PM
What is salvation? Salvation means being delivered from something. What are born again believers delivered from? The wages of sin. What is the wages of sin? Death. Once a person has exercised faith in the person & finished work of Christ Jesus he/she is saved once & for all time.

That is why salvation is called eternal life. Eternal life is eternal. There is nothing you can say or do to lose your salvation. Hebrews 10:14 says "By that one offering He has perfected FOREVER them that are sanctified." Born again believers are made forever perfect in the sight of God because of Jesus' sacrificial death & blood.

Once saved always saved. Jesus died for all sins once & for all time. Hebrews 10:12 "But our High Priest offered Himself to God as one sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then He sat down at the place of highest honor at God's right hand." Hebrews 10:17 "Then he adds, I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds. v.18 Now when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices."

According to Hebrews 10 as well as 1st Corinthians 15:1-4, & many other new testament passages in Romans and 1st John 2:2 Christ's sacrifice took away all sins of the world from the eyes of God forever.

There is no distinction between intentional and unintentional sins. Did Jesus go through all that trouble just to die for a selective group of sins? Did he die for "acceptable sins" only? Is accidental sin more acceptable in the sight of God than intentional sin?

I can only speak for myself when I say that every sin I have ever committed in my life has been intentional. Why? Because God never allows me to be tempted beyond what I can bear. He always provides a way out so I don't have to succumb to temptation.

Therefore every sin I commit is the result of my choosing to give into temptation. Therefore I don't believe there is such thing as unintentional sins. We have to take responsibility for our sins instead of minimizing it by saying "I tried not to sin but I couldn't help myself."

I believe the scripture that God never lets me be tempted beyond what I can bear. Therefore every sin I commit is intentional and committed because I chose to yield to temptation instead of taking the way out that God made.

So because Jesus sacrifice was more than enough to pay for intentional sins (which is the only way I believe a person can sin) the answer is no you will not go to hell for sinning on purpose. Those sins were placed behind the back of God 2000 years ago never to be seen again.

The only sin attributable to man is the sin of unbelief (rejection) in the One who came to die for the sins of the world so that raised from the dead He could impart spiritual life back into us that was lost because of Adam's sin. All sins of the world were judged at the cross.

The verdict was guilty and the punishment was death. Jesus took it all for us. If salvation could be lost then God would be exercising double jepoardy on sin. Double jeporady is illegal in the united states. Once the judge declares us not guillty there is no changing that.

If you have come to a point in your life where you have confessed (agreed) to God that you are a spiritually dead sinner and you have agreed with God that there is no way in hell that you can save yourself and that you need a Savior. And you have put your trust in Christ's sacrificial death alone for the total forgiveness of your sins and you have put your trust in His resurrection alone for the solution to your spiritual condition of spiritual death then you are saved and born again child of God. You never have to worry ever again about going to hell!

So have you come to that point in your life where you have come to the end of yourself and agreed with God concerning the truth about your spiritual condition and putting your trust in His Son's provision for you?

That provision being the death, burial, & resurrection. (1st Corinthians 15:1-4) That is the gospel. The gospel is NOT death, burial & resurrection + water baptism. The gospel is NOT death, burial, & resurrection plus tithing. The gospel is NOT death, burial & resurrection + church membership. The gospel is NOT death, burial, & resurrection + Saturday sabbath keeping. The gospel is NOT death, burial, & resurrection + trying to quit sinning.

The gospel is faith in Jesus' death, burial & resurrection alone as your provision for your spiritual condition of sin & death. No man will ever go to hell because of his sins except for the sin of rejecting the provision that Christ made for the whole world. If it were possible for sins committed on purpose to send one to hell then obviously Christ has some unfinished business to deal with on sin. But I believe what Jesus said in John 19:30 when He cried out from the cross "IT IS FINISHED!"

Even if a born again christian commits a massacare by killing 32 people including himself with a shotgun he will not lose his salvation. Those sins were judged at the cross as well. Jesus died for the sins of murder & suicide.

So if the virginia tech shooter trusted Christ as his Savior before committing that massacre then he is home safe in heaven tonight. Jesus welcomed him in with open arms.

According to the bible even serial killers and psychopaths who go on massive shooting sprees are NOT beyond the saving grace of God. I believe there are born again christians who engage in sociopathic and/or psychopathic behaviors.

KevinH777
Jul 13, 2007, 02:48 AM
What really matters to Christians is what the Bible says about the matter.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Kentucky, I believe the Scripture you have quoted directly deals with the question that has been asked, "Will you go to heaven or hell if you sin on purpose and you are saved?"


I think in answering the question, collectively, people have correctly pointed out that:

1. A true Christian cannot lose their salvation
2. Salvation is not by works - it is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
3. When Jesus died on the cross He paid the penalty for all sins - past, present and future.

True Christians sin and because of that may lack assurance of salvation.

Psalm 51:12 - "Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me."

As Christians, if we failure to grow spiritually, we may also lack confidence in our salvation:

2 Peter 1:3-10 - "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Anyone indwelt by the Holy Spirit is secure eternally (will bear the fruit of the Spirit):

Ephesians 1:13-14 - "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."

"

"

(Note: Only God who knows the heart of men - He alone is the Judge of man's eternal destination.)

According to Scripture, people who profess to know Christ at one time but later deny Him were never really saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 - "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

(Note: Only God who knows the heart of men - He alone is the Judge of man's eternal destination.)

According to Scripture, people who profess to know Christ at one time but later deny Him were never really saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 - "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

(I would recommending reading all of 1 John - it addresses our issue of whether a person is truly saved or not)

In my previous post in this thread (#18, page 2), I wrote about false teachers and a false gospel being preached. People can be manipulated into a decision that they think they made. And once they made the decision, that's the end of it - every thing's all settled. They can live any way they want. But that is not living the true Gospel.

Romans 6:1-2: "Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

According to 1 John, if any man continues in sin he doesn't know the Lord. If a person thinks salvation is some kind of a license to sin without impunity and judgment, they are not saved. Because the person who has genuinely converted has a new heart, new spirit, new longings, new aspirations, new desires. It is not the perfection of their life, but it is the direction of it.

(a side note to the previous post - Again, God is the judge, but because of the above and following Scripture, I have a hard time reconciling the fact that if a person goes on a killing spree and then commits suicide - that they would end up in heaven - even if they had "

1 John 3:3-10 - " to be a Christian. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is. I realize that Jesus saved one of the criminals that hung on a cross next to His, however, a true Christian will bear fruit. Although there may be a rare occasion (God's Sovereignty) that a mass murderer goes to heaven, but it is higly unlikely (based on Scripture). Really, as I am addressing in this post - it would go for any sin, not just murder. If someone commits those crimes and truly repents of their sin and accepts Christ, then sure they would go to heaven).

Ezekiel 36:26 - "claimed"

2 Corinthians 5:17 - "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

If a person is a true Christian, you need to see some fruit (Galatians 5:16-26). Are we ever going to get over sin? NO! Is there ever going to be a decreasing frequency of sin? For a Bible believing Christian, I say Yes. As we mature in Christ, there will be a decreasing frequency of sin - we will sin less. But as we grow in spiritual maturity, we will hate sin even more - we will sin less and feel worse. That's how it is. (Read Paul's statement in

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Romans 7:7-25; (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%207:7-25;&version=31;)

A true believer will never depart from the faith...

Philippians 1:6 - "

Ephesians 2:8-10 - "

So those who do so are revealing that they were never truly saved:

Hebrews 3:12-14 - "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first."

Matthew 7:13-14, 17-23 - "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

Do you want to know more about God's plan of salvation and how you can know for sure that you are going to heaven?

Read God's Plan of Salvation - Know For Certain That You Have Eternal Life (http://www.new-testament-christian.com/salvation.html)

If today, you decide to make the most important life changing decision you will ever make - becoming a follower of Jesus Christ - please contact me, I would love to talk with you about what to do next - (growing in your faith as a new Christian).

admin@new-testament-christian.com

God Bless,

Kevin

dreamguy
Jul 13, 2007, 11:04 AM
But is possible for a born again believer to commit a sin and not have time to repent of it because he dies of a heart attack or car accident the next second?

What if I get angry at someone on the freeway and flick them off and this person pulls out a gun and shoots me in retaliation? I would not go to hell for a sin I committed at the last minute of my life.

Therefore it is possible for a believer to commit a murder/suicide and still go to heaven. God does not have a numerical value on sin where some sins are more soul damaging than others. All it takes is one sin to condemn a person to death if that sin was not paid for on the cross.

Yes all believers will bear some fruit but all believers are also capable of falling back into carnality and committing some of what we would consider shocking sins. King David committed murder & adultery but he was still a man after God's own heart.

Lot is another example of one who did not live a righteous life yet God declared him righteous because of his faith. We can learn from the old testament heroes of faith that none of them lived righteously. The desires of the flesh do not go away just because one is saved. We are new creatures that inhabit the same body that contains indwelling sin.

While I believe all true believers will bear some fruit that fruit may or may not be visible to others or even to ourselves. There is a reason for that. Maybe because God knew that if He made that fruit visible to us all the time we would get self righteous and puffed up thinking that we are the ones who have something to do with producing the fruit.

I'd probably forget about Jesus in a minute if I were living a perfect life in this flesh & blood body. The scripture says to rejoice in our weaknesses because it's those weaknesses that keep us dependent on Christ. Those weaknesses are reminders. The indwelling sin in our flesh & blood bodies will continue to run its course until it heads to the grave.

As far as those scriptures in 1st John 3:6-9 is talking about our reborn spirit. A person who is born again does not sin in the sense that his reborn spirit does not sin at all. His spirit is secure forever.

The part of us that is born again cannot sin because God's seed is connected and remains there. 1st John 3:6-9 is not talking about sins that are committed from the flesh. The flesh will never change.

By the way 1st John 3:6-9 cannot be talking about habitual sin. It clearly says those who are born of God do not sin period! Nothing in there about habitual sin. So we either have to interpret this to mean that believers live a sinlessly perfect life in the flesh or we have to interpret this as talking about the reborn spirit of man (which is the real us).

This can be proven with what paul talks about in Romans 7:19-20 "When I want to do good, I don't. And when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. But if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it."

We see that paul struggled with sin in Romans 7:14-25. A poster said that true believers will sin less and less. Well how can one be sure of their salvation then? Should they make a checklist of how often they sin today compared to how often they sinned yesterday or the day before or when they were lost?

So I can be sure of my salvation as long as I don't sin as much as I did before I got saved? That means if I lied 10 times in a week as a lost person I should be doing a checklist to make sure I stop short of that by lying no more than 9 times a week?

What about fornication? I have to be careful not to fornicate more than once every 40 days as a saved person if I fornicated once every 30 days as a lost person?

Starman
Jul 13, 2007, 07:37 PM
What does the Bible say about the importance of behavior in relation to our justification and consequent salvation?

James 2:14 - What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him? (NET)

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
--James 2:14-17,24 (KJV)

Excerpt
When the word translated above as "justified" (Greek dikaioo, to render, show or regard as righteous) is used in other contexts in the New Testament, it is always used in the sense of being justified before God. (Examples: Romans 3:20, 3:24, 3:28, 5:1, 5:9; Galatians 2:16; Titus 3:7). It is never used to imply justification in the sight of one's fellow Christians.
Ebon Musings: Faith Alone (http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/faithalone.html)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." --2 Corinthians 5:10 (NIV)

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." --Matthew 16:27 (KJV)

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." --John 5:29 (KJV)

"[God] will render to every man according to his deeds, to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life... " --Romans 2:6,7 (KJV)


1 Corinthians 9:27
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Revelation 2:10
10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.


KJV: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The following words were written to those who had accepted Jesus as savior.

"Be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that will he also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Gal. 6:7-8)


"…do not be haughty, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE in His goodness. Otherwise YOU ALSO will be cut off!" (Rom.11:20-22)

KevinH777
Jul 13, 2007, 10:38 PM
While I believe all true believers will bear some fruit that fruit may or may not be visible to others or even to ourselves. There is a reason for that. Maybe because God knew that if He made that fruit visible to us all the time we would get self righteous and puffed up thinking that we are the ones who have something to do with producing the fruit.

Matthew 5:14-16 - "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Galatians 5:22-25 - "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

John 15:4-6 - "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

dreamguy
Jul 13, 2007, 10:41 PM
To those who say that true believers don't sin habitually my question is this: Where do we draw the line as to what constitutes habitual sin? Which one of us is qualified to make that judgement?

How many sins do I have to commit before it's considered habitual? Twice a week? Twice a month?

KevinH777
Jul 14, 2007, 12:57 AM
To those who say that true believers don't sin habitually my question is this: Where do we draw the line as to what constitutes habitual sin? Which one of us is qualified to make that judgement?

How many sins do I have to commit before it's considered habitual? Twice a week? Twice a month?

Dreamguy, you ask a good question, here is a solid biblical based article that addresses your question.

Here is an excerpt (the link follows)

"1 John 3:10 John sums up his thoughts: "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." I don't care what anyone claims--if they are not righteous, they are not Christians. A Christian habitually practices righteousness, but occasionally sins; he doesn't habitually sin, but occasionally does something right. Sin is incompatible with the law of God, the work of Christ, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit." - John MacArthur

Why Christians and Sin are Incompatible (2111) (1 John 3:4-10) - Grace to You (http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=study&aid=230391)

I hope it helps, God bless,

Kevin

dreamguy
Jul 14, 2007, 10:59 AM
Dreamguy, you ask a good question, here is a solid biblical based article that addresses your question.

Here is an excerpt (the link follows)

"1 John 3:10 John sums up his thoughts: "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." I don't care what anyone claims--if they are not righteous, they are not Christians. A Christian habitually practices righteousness, but occasionally sins; he doesn't habitually sin, but occasionally does something right. Sin is incompatible with the law of God, the work of Christ, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit." - John MacArthur

Why Christians and Sin are Incompatible (2111) (1 John 3:4-10) - Grace to You (http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=study&aid=230391)

I hope it helps, God bless,

Kevin


I already suspected that your beliefs were of the john macarthur brand. I've read some of his book's before. You must be reading out of the Macarthur study bible.

KevinH777
Jul 14, 2007, 05:45 PM
I already suspected that your beliefs were of the john macarthur brand. I've read some of his book's before. You must be reading out of the Macarthur study bible.

My beliefs are of the Word of God brand, I am follower of Jesus Christ, and I can say with Luther, "my conscience is held captive by the Word of God". I have a few books from MacArthur as well, he is a solid Bible teacher, but I do not agree with everything he believes - I study the Word, trying my best to apply proper hermeneutic principles, then relying on the Holy Spirit for wisdom and understanding. I happen to agree with him on the subject we have been discussing - sin and the Lordship of Christ.

I don't own a MacArthur study Bible, but I am sure like most of his teaching, it is pretty solid. When I am doing my personal devotions or preparing my lesson for Sunday (I teach the college and career class at my church), I like to study using a few different translations - usually the NIV, NKJV, and ESV, and on occasion the KJV and NASB. I will also refer back to the Greek and Hebrew when I am having difficulty with a passage.

God bless brother,

Kevin

leachman54
Apr 6, 2008, 07:14 PM
You belong to God when you accept Him. He won't let you go no matter what you do. He'll be working all the time to bring the person back to Him, but He still loves that person. That's what grace is all about. We don't go to Heaven because of what WE do. We go because of what Jesus did. The same holds true for hell. We don't go to hell because of our sins because Jesus bought us and paid for us. We belong to HIM! :)

Donna Mae
Apr 7, 2008, 07:23 PM
A Christian can burn in hell right next to a non-believer. This belief in 'once saved always saved,' is something we would all like to think is true, but it's not. Any Christian can fall from grace. "Many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord,' and I will say, I do not know you." If we are a Christian, we do God's will. God will not be tempted. Yes a Christian can be forgiven for sins, but that doesn't mean we can keep sinning willfully and always be forgiven, God knows our heart.

We can't pull the wool over God's eyes, He knows our every thought. If we don't have the love of Jesus in our hearts, we are not Christians. If we have Jesus in our hearts then we want to do His will, and willfully sinning just because you know you will be forgiven is another sin in itself.

Credendovidis
Apr 9, 2008, 04:09 AM
... A Christian can burn in hell right next to a non-believer ...
I have to protest about that! Non-believers prefer their own section... :D

But serious : of course that all is subject to : "if there is a hell".
And if that hell is like you describe it.
What brings up the thought that the difference between Heaven and Hell basically is (if they exist) that Heaven is with and Hell is without the presence of God.
Isn't it time to lose all these 2000+ years old simplistic ideas of actual fire and burning brimstone?
:rolleyes:

sassyT
Apr 10, 2008, 09:45 AM
I have to protest about that! Non-believers prefer their own section ... :D

But serious : of course that all is subject to : "if there is a hell".
And if that hell is like you describe it.
What brings up the thought that the difference between Heaven and Hell basically is (if they exist) that Heaven is with and Hell is without the presence of God.
Isn't it time to lose all these 2000+ years old simplistic ideas of actual fire and burning brimstone?
:rolleyes:

Unfortunately just because years have advanced on earth does not mean hell has ceased to exist. It is still real and very much there. Yes even the fire and brimstone :)

Credendovidis
Apr 11, 2008, 07:41 AM
Unfortunately just because years have advanced on earth does not mean hell has ceased to exist. It is still real and very much there. Yes even the fire and brimstone :)
That is what you BELIEVE. But is that factual? Is that the one and only truth?
;)

sassyT
Apr 11, 2008, 08:17 AM
That is what you BELIEVE But is that factual? Is that the one and only truth?
;)

YES, You BELIEVE there is no hell, no God, no Heven etc right? But is that FACTUAL? Or is that just what you have faith in? ;)

N0help4u
Apr 12, 2008, 01:44 PM
He is playing games with God and if he doesn't grow and learn that God is not into games then he very likely was never really saved to begin with.
Like if he doesn't see a problem with purposely sinning because he knows he can ask God to forgive him then maybe he used the same logic with the 'getting saved' part.
Many Christians play the game your boyfriend is playing right now but eventually grow up. God looks at the heart and intent. If he does not grow and learn then he was just playing games.

Nicole82
Apr 15, 2008, 07:58 PM
Ok...I got saved about 5 or 6 months ago and my boyfriend who used to be a very good christian encouraged me to..well now my boyfriend is slacking off and has been purposely doing sins, and asks God for forgiveness, knowing that he will do it again.. and he thinks that just because he is saved he will still go to heaven and not hell..my question is will you still go to heaven if you are saved and doing sins on purpose and asking God for forgiveness but knowing that you are going to do it again or will you go to Hell? Please help me!!:confused: :(
Your boyfriend is wrong! GOD will forgive us for our sins if we repent from our heart. If he knows he's going to keep doing wrong Hes playing with God In the bible Jesus said "Go and Sin no more" Your boyfriend is taking GOD's grace and mercy to to play with. People always talk about how much GOD loves us but GOD does get angry. He doesn't want to fall under the wrath of an angry GOD!

De Maria
Apr 17, 2008, 09:01 AM
Ok...I got saved about 5 or 6 months ago and my boyfriend who used to be a very good christian encouraged me to..well now my boyfriend is slacking off and has been purposely doing sins, and asks God for forgiveness, knowing that he will do it again.. and he thinks that just because he is saved he will still go to heaven and not hell..my question is will you still go to heaven if you are saved and doing sins on purpose and asking God for forgiveness but knowing that you are going to do it again or will you go to Hell? Please help me!!:confused: :(

Hell:

Romans 6
1 What shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein?


Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Sincerely,

De Maria

cogs
Aug 13, 2008, 11:54 PM
if this is about sex, it's a hard thing to get purified, even if you try. Seems like the boyfriend may have given up because of the guilt. Like maybe if he can't be good, then he'll stop trying. I completely understand. If he keeps coming to god and confessing his sins, then yes, god will forgive him every time. The holy spirit was sent to help us, and we need that power to stop sinning. Your boyfriend may have the mindset that god's going to punish him anyway, cause that's what sin brings. But he doesn't understand that god's merciful, and jesus died for our sins while we were yet sinners. Your boyfriend needs the love and mercy of god to stop sinning. Tell him instead of giving up, plead for this love and mercy, and for the holy spirit to help him where he's weak. God loves him, and does not wish that he perishes. If he needs help understanding something, please tell him to write me on here.

midwayballer
Feb 1, 2010, 11:01 AM
hi I play basketball I am saved but I sin every day if I could follow jesus all the time it would be great a lot of people pretend to be saved, they lie ,and steal which is wrong it is not right to do so if you are saved do what is right I am 14 years old I got saved last year at bible school so follow, worship, and live through him and do what's right:o

midwayballer
Feb 1, 2010, 11:03 AM
Please pray for me

arcura
Feb 1, 2010, 10:36 PM
lonely_scared_confused.
De Maria is right.
Continuing to sin willfully is a big no no.
Yes God is forgiving but flaunting sin in His face surely will make Him angry.
What would your own father do if you disobeyed his with doing the same wrong over and over again.
Would he not punish you is some way and be very sad that you kept on doing the same wrong?
The same for your boy friend.
God loves the sinner but hates the sin. That is why He urges us to quit sinning.
The willful sinner is hell bound and God does not want to have to send you or your boy friend to hell.
But willful repeated sinning severely stains one's soul.
So stop doing it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

monkeydamyo
Feb 22, 2010, 08:37 PM
there is a book I just read call "if grace is true"- its about gods love and the very controversial topic of who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. If you don't what to see the foundations of our religion questioned and re-evaluated, Don't READ IT.

it focuses on gods eternal, unconditional, unwavering and ever-patient love. This is the part that gets to people- god will save everyone.

before your call that heresy or condemn me to hell if I don't change, think about it, if u think that death will stop god from loving us, that god will just drop his promise of loving us when we die and go to hell, that he cant reach us in hell or that he doesn't want to save us, please consider that you are diminishing the power of his love, the power of his will to have his children in heaven with him. Consider that you are diminishing his strength to carry out his will, to overcome evil through love and forgiveness, and that you are dimishing his patience with us, we can sin and sin again, it will take longer to save us but in the end we will be saved. Know that I am NOT SAYING that you should just sin because you will go to heaven eventually anyway... but then why do good in the first place you may ask... feel ashamed that you even asked that question, we work for god not for a prize, not just to have a seat with him in heaven, but to please him, to live with him and feel joy when we give him joy.

our faith is not the goal at the end of the road, if u concentrate on that goal, not on the journey you will find your way blocked. Our faith is a journey, with jesus christ sent by god so we are shown the right path, it may be a narrow gate to go through to get to heaven once we find it, we have to shed everything we are to get through them, but in the end, jesus will stay with us, and guide us back to god show us how to get to god. We must follow jesus, he is the only way to god, when I say that I look at jesus and his grace, we have to have faith in jesus and believe in him, believe that following him is the right choice to god. Jesus did not come for the faithful, but for the sin full, he came so that his message might be heard and that he would be believed when he spoke the word of god, and ultimately that we would follow him to the end.

arcura
Feb 22, 2010, 08:46 PM
monkeydamyo,
I think that Jesus came for everyone and to help make the sinners faithful and righteous.
It is those who think that they are great because they obey the law and show off their tithing whose pride will prevent them from their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

monkeydamyo
Feb 22, 2010, 09:13 PM
If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. - 2 timothy 2:13 would god truly be satisified at such a failure? His wish is to have all of us with him in heaven, so believing that having less than 1% of all humans through out all of history would be belittling gods power, love and patience, do u think he would stop looking for his lost sheep just because the sheep is knowingly evading him? We are mere sheep, he is the lord, his strides will out step us eventually, and once we see him, we know we are not lost any longer, and we will beg for forgiveness, but he will already be holding in his loving arms. There is just too much comparison of god to human nature and stories about god from human views, he does not get angry like we do, to do so is sinful. Where even the most patient humans will eventually snap and grow wrathful, god will be better and remain loving and patient. Plus its not the finish line of a race we are concentrating on, it's the journey with god where joy is made, the life with god where we help him gather his sheep along the path- and we will go back for any sheep that were not found until we are all in gods embrace.

Using the lost sheep thing again, we will grow tired of running away, god will find us. Or using the parable of the prodigal son, god didn't wait for us to walk through the doors, once we grow weary or hungry, we will find the realization of gods greatness. He will come out to meet us once we are back on the right path to him.

arcura
Feb 22, 2010, 09:24 PM
monkeydamyo,
The bible tells us that only the few will go to heaven.
If all who proclaim to be Christian go that's 2 billion people.
BUT>>>>
It's just a few of the almost 7 billion people on this planet today.
Yes, I do believe that God does eventually give up efforts on some people, particularly those who outwardly, strenuously reject Him.
I think that strongly committed atheists have little chance to go to heaven.
That's sad.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

monkeydamyo
Feb 22, 2010, 09:45 PM
I understand your point, and respect your opinion. I also meant since the beginning of human civilization, which is an almost innumerable amount of people. The number of people going to heaven would increase, but the fact that for a time most people went to church without knowing the language in which the religion was taught in, of the ones that did, many were corrupt.

the reason the devil most certainly will not be redeemed is exactly because the increase of his hate and rejection of god after every demonstration of grace god shows. But he is different from humans, he is eternal and will suffer. But humans are not made like that, god made us, and after long we will become empty husks, Satan cares nothing for us so his drive in us will not be replenished, and we will seek god. In my opinion, I believe god will see us at the door step, and the pent up salvation he had saved for us all hasn't gone anywhere, he doesn't have the need to through stuff out. The joy he will take in releasing his love once again will be great, he seeks to give salvation when genuinely asked for, once we get it, no sin short term will make us feel better than his love eternal love.

I just realized I post really long comments...

arcura
Feb 22, 2010, 10:54 PM
monkeydamyo,
I actually hope you are right, but I fear that that will not be.
Hell is for those whom God judges to be goats.
The sheep go to heaven.
The bible is clear about that.
Jesus tells us all about hell and the lake of fire that those judged not saved will be cast into.
It is the eternal abode of agony.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

monkeydamyo
Feb 23, 2010, 05:39 PM
I hope I'm right too- but we are only human. Only god is completely sure of the truth, we can only interpret his works and our experience/ relationship with him, in the end, its up to the lord... but I am hoping that he is gracious and I am placing my faith with him because I trust his love.

arcura
Feb 23, 2010, 07:29 PM
monkeydamyo,
Good for you.
I'm a bit disturbed about someone having been sinful for this short life being sent to any eternity (much longer than several trillion years) as punishment.
But I an not as wise and just as God is.
So I must accept what He says and does.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

uncleshal
Mar 10, 2010, 09:14 PM
Ok...I got saved about 5 or 6 months ago and my boyfriend who used to be a very good christian encouraged me to..well now my boyfriend is slacking off and has been purposely doing sins, and asks God for forgiveness, knowing that he will do it again.. and he thinks that just because he is saved he will still go to heaven and not hell..my question is will you still go to heaven if you are saved and doing sins on purpose and asking God for forgiveness but knowing that you are going to do it again or will you go to Hell? Please help me!!:confused: :(

I would have to tell you yes if your boyfriend doesn't truly make effort to stop sinning & truly repent of his sin he will end up in HELL. Right now there is women who was just like your boyfriend who continued to do sinful things & say she believed in JESUS & come to him & keep confessing the same sin but go right back out & do that same sin again. Well eventually once she died THE LORD JESUS CHRIST sent her to HELL cause she loved her sin more than JESUS. This testimony came from a women that was showed HELL by JESUS CHRIST called Marry K Baxter. I suggest you show her testimony to you boyfriend & tell him to truly repent of his sin before it's to late & he does end up in HELL & if that doesn't change him & make him turn from his sinful ways then that shows the LORD has just harden his heart & he has chosen to love his sin more than JESUS CHRIST. JESUS said many will come to him saying LORD LORD I worship you in your name & he will say to those people away with you worker of inequity I never knew you.

arcura
Mar 10, 2010, 09:27 PM
uncleshal,
You have made a very good point.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Donna Mae II
Apr 5, 2010, 11:59 PM
Hebrews 2: 1-3
We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?

Acts 16: 30-34
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in the house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Donna Mae II
Apr 6, 2010, 12:19 AM
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31 KJV

So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." NKJV

They replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with your entire household." NLT

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.” NIV

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” ESV

They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." NASB

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." RSV

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house. ASV

and they said, `Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved -- thou and thy house;' Young Literal Translation

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house. Darby

But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Douay-Rheims

And last but not least, "They said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will get saved, you and your household." New World Translation

So which of these mistranslated the scriptures?

You just need to finish the scripture. "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.

arcura
Apr 6, 2010, 10:29 PM
Donna Mae II,
Yes that is true we must do as the bible says do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT
Apr 9, 2010, 05:58 AM
You just need to finish the scripture. "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Curious here?? What would have happened to that jailer if after his confession and during the washing of their wounds he would have croaked? Of course baptism should follow the confession but for many reasons it does not IMMEDIATELY. What would happen if I were to lay in a hospital bed and turned to the Lord just before I died. I confessed I was a sinner and I needed HIM, then I died. Because I didn't have a chance to be baptized does that make me unsaved? I think NOT.

Salvation is of the Lord. All we can do is believe it by faith and accept the free gift.

Romans 10:9 IF thou shalf confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believen in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

By the way.. I was baptized in the 3rd grade but I was saved several years before the baptism.

Donna Mae II
Apr 9, 2010, 09:44 PM
I do fully believe that we must be baptized into Christ, and that as soon as we accept Jesus as our Savior, we should be baptized. But as you said things can happen like an auto accident on the way to be baptized, that's where God's grace comes in. God can save anyone, but I wouldn't want to take the chance of losing my salvation by putting off being baptized. God knows our hearts and if we put it off thinking, I'm saved, I can be baptized anytime--that's wrong, and we could lose our salvation. Why would anyone want to postpone something so important to salvation.

arcura
Apr 13, 2010, 10:24 PM
Donna Mae II,
Yes it is a big mistake to put off being baptized.
However there are many theologians who think that if a person intends to be baptized but for some reason such as a car accident prevented that for taking place they call that "Baptism by Intent" and God's mercy and grace prevails.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT
Apr 14, 2010, 05:54 AM
Again, God can't and won't go against his word. If physical baptism is required of one for salvation.. it is required of all. NO exceptions.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shalll be saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus christ and thou shalt be saved...

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

Salvation is of the LORD.

We are automatically spirtially baptized with Christ... something GOD does when we call upon him for salvation.

The physical act is an outward expression of an inward belief. The Lord Jesus told us to do it. I did... it didn't save me.

The Lord Jesus told us to remember him in his death with the bread and wine. I do. It doesn't save me.

The Lord Jesus said... if you love me, you will obey me.

Anyone who has called on the Lord Jesus for salvation are in direct disobedience if they don't get baptized.

It takes another human being to baptize a person. It is PREPOSTEROUS to think that the Lord would leave ANYTHING to man, he finished the work the only thing left for us to do is receive it by faith.

ONE more time for good measure... Salvation is of the LORD. Jonah 2:9

arcura
Apr 14, 2010, 10:35 PM
classyT,
STOP and think a minute about that...
Jesus left a lot of things and activities for we human followers of Him to do.
He told his followers (among other things) to go out into the world preaching and teaching AND to baptize. That's three different things.
He said TO DO THAT!!
I do believe that Jesus meant what He said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Donna Mae II
Apr 15, 2010, 12:41 AM
Again, God can't and won't go against his word. If physical baptism is required of one for salvation..it is required of all. NO exceptions.

Jesus didn't pick and choose who should be baptized. He said, in Matthew 28:18, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
There are NO exceptions.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shalll be saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus christ and thou shalt be saved...

Acts 19:1-5 says, "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" And they said unto him, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." He said to them, "Unto what then were you baptized?" They said, "Unto John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

John's baptism was to believe on Jesus. If that's all we have to do today then why did the disciples have to be baptized again?

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

Salvation is of the LORD.

We are automatically spirtially baptized with Christ...something GOD does when we call upon him for salvation.

Can I ask where it says in the Bible that we are automatically spiritually baptized? Acts 8: 26-40 tells of how Philip baptized the Ethiopian. There was no automatic baptism, they both went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

The physical act is an outward expression of an inward belief. The Lord Jesus told us to do it. I did...it didn't save me.

I did too, and God saved me. But it is a command that we must do.

The Lord Jesus told us to remember him in his death with the bread and wine. I do. It doesn't save me.

I remember our Lord Jesus every Sunday with His communion, and yes, that is part of being saved. Jesus said," This is my body which is for you, do this in remembrance of me." In the same way He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 1 Corinthians 11:24-26
It also says whoever eats or drinks this in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord...For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

If there is nothing we can do, after we are saved, to lose our salvation, then why would we bring judgement on ourselves if we take His supper in an unworthy way?

The Lord Jesus said...if you love me, you will obey me.

I do love Him, that's why I obeyed Him by being baptized.

Anyone who has called on the Lord Jesus for salvation are in direct disobedience if they don't get baptized.

It takes another human being to baptize a person. It is PREPOSTEROUS to think that the Lord would leave ANYTHING to man, he finished the work the only thing left for us to do is recieve it by faith.

God left our salvation to man. To us. He saves us, but if we do not do His will (and yes He left that to us-to do it or not), then we choose our final destination--hell.

ONE more time for good measure... Salvation is of the LORD. Jonah 2:9

Yes, salvation is of the Lord. And He also said, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

Donna Mae II
Apr 15, 2010, 12:53 AM
dwashbur
God doesn't tell us if the thief on the cross was baptized or not. He could have been baptized by John's baptism.

classyT
Apr 15, 2010, 05:18 AM
Donna,
... even IF he were baptized what good did it do him? He obviously hadn't repented.. he was on the cross for crimes he committed. AND... at first HE was trash talking the Lord with the other thief... He watched and he listened to Jesus on that cross and had a HEART change. What good does baptism do IF you don't have a heart change? It does NOTHING. Just another useless act.

The Bible after the death and resurrection of Christ instructs us to BELIEVE first and then get baptized. Not the other way around.

dwashbur
Apr 15, 2010, 09:10 AM
classyT,
STOP and think a minute about that....
Jesus left a lot of things and activities for we human followers of Him to do.
He told his followers (among other things) to go out into the world preaching and teaching AND to baptize. That's three different things.
He said TO DO THAT!!!!
I do believe that Jesus meant what He said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Actually, there's only one thing in the Greek of the Great Commission in Matthew 28: make disciples. The next two actions, teaching and baptizing, are aspects of that command. "Make disciples" is an imperative (command) while "teaching" and "baptizing" are participles (descriptive) explaining some of what's involved in making disciples.

That comes from my alter ego, Sir Nitpick ;) (I sometimes have a hard time controlling him.)

Donna, there is nothing at all in the text to even hint at such a thing. You can speculate, of course, but that's all it is. And it gets us nowhere.

kiralyfe33
May 11, 2010, 10:15 PM
Hi my name is kira and I have seen your question. I was confused and scared on this before too but not until I had read this one on a site. READ:

Now some churches multiply rules: you can’t drink, you can’t smoke, you can’t go to movies, you can’t dance, you can’t wear makeup,. But others take Luther’s realization to mean that, "Now that I’m a Christian and recited the magic words, I’ve got it made, and it doesn’t matter what I do. I can be as mean and nasty as I want. I’m saved." Have you ever met anyone like that?. Uh-huh, I have too.

And of course, that’s not right either. This is where the words of James are so important. Faith without works is dead. It’s not enough to learn about swimming from a book and recite the swimmers creed. You have to go in the water.

As Christians, we are freed from the law and the petty rules and legalisms. As Paul says, "The law kills, but the Spirit gives life."... New life. So if we are Christians, then we will exhibit the fruits of the Holy spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

But this doesn’t happen just because we say we believe in Jesus. Our faith is a free unmerited gift of God; but it’s not magic. We must accept God’s grace, and let it work in us. It’s not enough to say we believe in Jesus. We must accept him as our Lord and Savior and Master. That means committing our lives to him. It means committing to following his example, as best we can.

If you are wondering where it says faith without works is dead it is in the scripture in the bible is James 2:26.

kiralyfe33
May 11, 2010, 10:21 PM
Study hard on this what I have written. Yes of course it is possible to get a start and be saved by believing what he's done for you in your heart and by calling on his name but notice that it isn't just enough. As Christians we are new creatures Corinthians 5:17. If we are made new then the old has passed and new has come (changing from our sins and old ways to new ways). Yes it is possible to go to heaven being a sinner but there are painful consequences for that on judgement day which is when we die. We cannot just receive God and fully follow our own ways though and not try to change because that is not having works and we do not truly have faith then because it is dead without works. We need faith and works to get there! Having works is having the desire to change in the heart and trying to and wanting to be different. So those who don't believe in Christ or God and or do not follow his ways at all but there own will more likely perish. We need to have that desire to change and try to and give our lives to him.

kiralyfe33
May 11, 2010, 10:25 PM
We cannot get into heaven doing our own will and not some of his but not making a excuse of those who do not follow somewhat or do some things because they want. There is judgement day for that and they will pay the price the bible says so.

arcura
May 11, 2010, 11:02 PM
kiralyfe33,
Welcome.
I agree with you on this.
The bible gives us several examples of what we must do.
In fact one is a commandment issued by Jesus Christ and that is "Love one another as I have loved you.
Another example is if you want to be forgiven you must forgive others. Those who do not forgive will not be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT
May 12, 2010, 06:22 AM
I'd just like to say this... I really dislike the term "once saved, always saved". Because the first thing people think is we can call on the Name of the Lord and be saved and then NOT change on the inside one bit.

Jesus said we shall know true believers by their fruit. Paul lists the fruit of the spirit in Galatians.

If a person NEVER displays real fruit in their lives, then I would sincerely doubt their salvation. ( But only God knows the heart)

I can tell you this, I was saved as a child. I love the Lord Jesus and the Lord himself said something like this... if you love me, you will obey me.

Ok, having said ALL that. I have stepped outside of the will of God for my life MANY times. In other words... I was disobedient. There have been times in my life where you'd NEVER have known I was a Christian because I acted like the world or worse. AND I never once lost my salvation. NEVER

AND... incidently HE was ever wooing me back to Himself. Always!! He never gave up. Because I am his child. And besides ALL of that I ended up miserable, lonely and missing HIM desperately.

Lets not kid ourselves! The Bible even says there IS pleasure in sin for a season. I mean it can be fun. But for a Christian... I couldn't continue on because I was tormented and I had no peace. So after I reaped what I sowed... I would come running back and he took me because I am HIS OWN. He never left me anyway. I wondered off... still sealed with His wonderful Spirit.

Do I believe that a true believer in Christ can lose their salvation? Isn't NO way. My Bible says I'm SEALED with the Holy Spirit. BUT there is always a consequence for sin... this verse is for EVERYBODY.. those that are Christians those that are NOT Christians.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked for whatsoever a man soweth, THAT shall he reap.
(galatians.. I don't know the chapter and verse off hand.)

Sow the good stuff, reap the good stuff. Sow the sin, reap the consequence. Your choice.

Some people call I Karma... I call it a biblical promise!

arcura
May 12, 2010, 09:29 PM
classyT,
A true Christian believer will do as Jesus and the bible say.
That means that they (believers) ARE working their faith.
But...
The person who does not work his/her faith proves that their faith is DEAD and therefor NOT a true believer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT
May 13, 2010, 06:38 AM
Fred,

We really are on the same page... sorta. I DO think we can get into a sin cycle. I have, it didn't change my position in Christ. I am IN HIM and No one is going to take me out. Not even ME.

Check out what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5 about the guy that is living with his stepmother in a sexual relationship. ( ewwwwww, yuck and barf.. btw). Paul calls this guy a brother... he doesn't say he lost his salvation. He says to turn him over to satan so satan could have at him but his soul would be saved in the end. Turns out the guy repented and so did the assembly for letting this go on before their eyes.

All the Lord wants is for us to judge ourselves and repent from our sins. He doesn't throw us out of the family. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ( incidentally it is what the Bible teaches too )

BUT someone who just says a prayer for salvation and who NEVER changes... I wouldn't own them as a Christian. BUT... only GOD knows the heart.

arcura
May 13, 2010, 06:43 PM
classyT,
I agree and it's as I said a true Christian as opposed to one who just claims to be one.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

dwashbur
May 13, 2010, 06:50 PM
classyT,
I agree and it's as I said a true Christian as opposed to one who just claims to be one.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I agree, though if someone claims to be a Christian as I define the term ("saved," in the terms of this thread) I tend to believe I should give them the benefit of the doubt since I'm not qualified to judge their hearts.

bluemoon111
Sep 12, 2010, 12:20 AM
JESUS SAYD IN A NEW TESTAMENT, THAT FOR THOSE WHO CONTINUES TO LIVE PURPOSLY IN A SINFUL LIFESTYLE, NO MORE LEFT ANY COVERAGE FOR SINS, BUT A FEARFUL AWAITING OF THE FIERY JUDGEMENT... For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins... Hope,it helped you...

saintjoan
Sep 13, 2010, 07:39 AM
John 10:28-29 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

De Maria
Sep 13, 2010, 11:59 AM
John 10:28-29 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

saintjoan
Sep 13, 2010, 03:25 PM
John 15:2 In the original Greek taken away is airo, which means “to raise up, elevate, lift up” (Strong’s Concordance). Grape farmers must lift the vines off the ground if they are to produce fruit. In verse 2, Jesus was saying anyone who abides in him, (a believer) will be lifted so that he can produce fruit. Those who do not abide in the branch (non-believers) will be thrown into the fire. (Verse 6)

De Maria
Sep 14, 2010, 11:42 AM
John 15:2 In the original Greek taken away is airo, which means “to raise up, elevate, lift up” (Strong’s Concordance). Grape farmers must lift up the vines off the ground if they are to produce fruit. In verse 2, Jesus was saying anyone who abides in him, (a believer) will be lifted up so that he can produce fruit. Those who do not abide in the branch (non-believers) will be thrown into the fire. (Verse 6)

I'm not an expert in Greek. But Airo, third meaning in the concordance used by the BLB says that it does mean:

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off

a) to move from its place

b) to take off or away what is attached to anything

c) to remove

d) to carry off, carry away with one

e) to appropriate what is taken

f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force

g) to take and apply to any use

h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence

I) cause to cease
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G142&t=KJV)

As I said, I'm not an expert in Greek, but I assume the folks who put together the King James were. And according to the context they chose to say:

John 15:2 (King James Version)

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

The NIV experts say the same;

John 15:2 (New International Version)

2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

John 15:2 (New American Standard Bible)

2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Are you a greater expert than they?

dwashbur
Sep 14, 2010, 02:19 PM
John 15:2 In the original Greek taken away is airo, which means “to raise up, elevate, lift up” (Strong’s Concordance). Grape farmers must lift up the vines off the ground if they are to produce fruit. In verse 2, Jesus was saying anyone who abides in him, (a believer) will be lifted up so that he can produce fruit. Those who do not abide in the branch (non-believers) will be thrown into the fire. (Verse 6)

De Maria's response to this is correct. Airo has a very broad meaning according to its context, and in this one it pretty well has to mean "remove." The real question is, how do we reconcile this passage with the John 10 passage that saintjoan quoted. On the one hand we have

"No one can take them out of my hand, they have eternal life and will NEVER perish,"

And on the other hand we have

"if it doesn't abide in me it doesn't bear fruit, and it's removed."

So there's the conundrum. How do you reconcile the two? (That's an open question to anybody who wants to respond, by the way.)

De Maria
Sep 14, 2010, 04:36 PM
De Maria's response to this is correct. Airo has a very broad meaning according to its context, and in this one it pretty well has to mean "remove." The real question is, how do we reconcile this passage with the John 10 passage that saintjoan quoted. On the one hand we have

"No one can take them out of my hand, they have eternal life and will NEVER perish,"

and on the other hand we have

"if it doesn't abide in me it doesn't bear fruit, and it's removed."

So there's the conundrum. How do you reconcile the two? (That's an open question to anybody who wants to respond, by the way.)

John 15:1 says that the Father is the husbandman. It is the Father who prunes and cuts branches.

John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:...

In addition, we know that a person can wilfully remove himself by negligence or by choosing to do evil:

Hebrews 2:2-4 (King James Version)

2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;

3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

John 15

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

dwashbur
Sep 14, 2010, 06:15 PM
John 15:1 says that the Father is the husbandman. It is the Father who prunes and cuts branches.

John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: ....

In addition, we know that a person can wilfully remove himself by negligence or by choosing to do evil:

Hebrews 2:2-4 (King James Version)

2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

John 15

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Yes, we know your view and the passages behind it. What about the other ones? You have not addressed them. That's what I'm asking you to do.

Horse2shoe
Oct 21, 2010, 04:42 AM
Check out Living Waters, the way of the master. Your boyfriend does not have the fruits of the spirit in which a TRUE repented child of God does... He may have been a FALSE CONVERT to start with, its too tiring to be good, and to change in the flesh WITHOUT the help of the spirit! Google - The way of the master. It's a gold mine of knowledge that may help you out :D

classyT
Oct 21, 2010, 06:31 AM
First of all, it is the FRUIT not fruits of the spirit. Second of all no one can say whether the person is truly the Lord's. But once I really am placed IN Christ, He in me... then I'm HID in God. And it has NOTHING in the world to do with my performance as a Christian and it has everything to do with HIS finished work. And that is all I have to say about that.

Athos
Oct 23, 2010, 12:06 AM
But once I really am placed IN Christ, He in me....then I'm HID in God. and it has NOTHING in the world to do with my performance as a Christian and it has everything to do with HIS finished work. And that is all I have to say about that.

While I respect your belief, doesn't it absolve you from any bad behavior you may have had, or now have, or will have in the future?

No offense, but your position strikes me as "cheap grace", a kind of 21st century Madame Guyon.

dwashbur
Oct 23, 2010, 10:25 AM
While I respect your belief, doesn't it absolve you from any bad behavior you may have had, or now have, or will have in the future?

No offense, but your position strikes me as "cheap grace", a kind of 21st century Madame Guyon.

That's the usual accusation, but it's built on a false premise. It assumes that one will convert in order to be able to get away with stuff sans consequences. But true conversion comes as a result of a change of attitude, a desire to turn one's life around. Will there be times of misbehavior? Downright badness? Of course. People are people. Temptation will come and we will succumb at times. But God's grace looks at the "big picture," if you will, and that's why it covers such times. There's a judgment for believers, too, and we don't actually know what it looks like. We do know it doesn't involve condemnation/hell/whatever, but that's as much as we know. There will be an accounting, for both believers and non-believers, so there really is no such thing as this "cheap grace."

classyT
Oct 25, 2010, 08:37 AM
While I respect your belief, doesn't it absolve you from any bad behavior you may have had, or now have, or will have in the future?

No offense, but your position strikes me as "cheap grace", a kind of 21st century Madame Guyon.

"cheap grace"... hmmm.. interesting but absolutely false. If Grace is unmerited favor... and I can't earn it because I don't deserve it... then explain to me how I can keep it... when I can't EARN it.

When you really understand grace... the way the Lord Jesus died to give it freely to us all... it will produce the right behavior. So there isn't anything CHEAP about my Saviors grace. It would be CHEAP only if I could lose it.

I don't know anything about madame Guyon... ( shall Google it) but it is the same thing the Apostle Paul preached. So my position is the Bible's position... no strings attached. UNMERITED means just that. :)

Athos
Oct 28, 2010, 06:46 PM
That's the usual accusation, but it's built on a false premise. It assumes that one will convert in order to be able to get away with stuff sans consequences. "

It makes no such assumption. The "bad" behavior comes after. One "presumes" the grace of God (once saved, always saved). This leads to the believer acting out in ways no longer guided by traditional principles first laid down in the Ten Commandments.

Does every single person follow this path? Obviously not. But it is a danger, nonetheless. That's why I mentioned Madame Guyon who is the great exemplar of antinomianism.

godsword
Jan 23, 2011, 06:28 PM
Gods Word is sharper that a two edged sword
Hebrews 10:26-27, For if we wilfully sin after receiving the knowlage of the truth, there remains NO More Sacrifice for sin. But only a fearful expectation of judgement of a raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
John 9:31 We know that God does NOT listen to SINNERS, he LISTENS to Godly people that do his will.
Job 35:13 Indeed, God does NOT listen to their empty plea, the Almighty pays NO attention to it.
Galatians 6:7 Do NOT be decived, God is NOT mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap!

GOD Bless all who listen to his Word and OBEY Him, AMEN.

saintjoan
Jan 23, 2011, 09:25 PM
I am not a expert in Greek. But James Strong was. He defines airo as follows:
1) to raise up, elevate, lift
1a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones
1b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
1c) to draw up: a fish
2) to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
3a) to move from its place
3b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
3c) to remove
3d) to carry off, carry away with one
3e) to appropriate what is taken
3f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
3g) to take and apply to any use
3h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
3i) cause to cease
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
It would appear that the concept of taking up or lifting is implied in all three definitions. The translators of the King James Bible did translate Airo as take away 32 times, lift 4 times, bear 3 times.
AV - take up 32, take away 25, take 25, away with 5, lift 4, bear 3, misc 8; 102 Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

The word eternal means never ending. If one looses his salvation, then he never really had eternal life to begin with. He at best had temporary life.

HeadStrongBoy
Jan 25, 2011, 10:11 AM
My observation is somewhat beside the point, and it's aimed more at the administrators of this site. Do I read correctly that this question has been open since the year 2007 ? Or is that some kind of error ?

I do agree that the question itself is EXTREMELY important. But, almost FOUR YEARS for the same question?? What gives?? Am I missing something here?

I know that my personal rating on this site is very low. But I have asked a few questions that were also quite interesting and open too much possible discussion. But they were summarily CLOSED. For no apparent reason that I could fathom. What kind of rationale is at work here that governs this site ? Nothing that makes sense to me.

Curlyben
Jan 25, 2011, 11:46 AM
My observation is somewhat beside the point, and it's aimed more at the administrators of this site. Do I read correctly that this question has been open since the year 2007 ? Or is that some kind of error ?
Your powers of observation do not deceive you that is indeed the case.


I do agree that the question itself is EXTREMELY important. But, almost FOUR YEARS for the same question?? What gives?? Am I missing something here?
I don't think you are missing anything, although the OP hasn't been back since Feb 2007


I know that my personal rating on this site is very low. But I have asked a few questions that were also quite interesting and open too much possible discussion. But they were summarily CLOSED. For no apparent reason that I could fathom. What kind of rationale is at work here that governs this site ? Nothing that makes sense to me.
I think that has already been explained to you on a number of occasions already.

HeadStrongBoy
Jan 26, 2011, 07:27 AM
Curlyben, your heading contains the title "Admin & Wine Expert..."

I assume that means you're one of the administators at Ask Me. Is that correct ?

Allow me to clarify an apparent misunderstanding of some very basic English definitions.

[1] Brush - Off: an abrupt dismissal or snub.
[2] Explanation: the act of making understandable, elucidating, expounding, clarifying, etc.

Do you see the difference between [1] and [2] ?

Curlyben
Jan 26, 2011, 07:42 AM
Curlyben, your heading contains the title "Admin & Wine Expert..."

I assume that means you're one of the administators at Ask Me. Is that correct ?
You are correct


Allow me to clarify an apparent misunderstanding of some very basic English definitions.

[1] Brush - Off: an abrupt dismissal or snub.
[2] Explanation: the act of making understandable, elucidating, expounding, clarifying, etc.

Do you see the difference between [1] and [2] ?
And your point is ?

HeadStrongBoy
Jan 26, 2011, 08:00 AM
Quoting Curlyben:
"And your point is ?"

Answer: Apparently wasted.

But I don't mind that much. You see after all I'm still here.

P.S. Where can I find and download icons that move similar to yours ? Very spooky effect.

nrice
Jan 30, 2011, 07:42 AM
You aren't saved by what by you do or what you don't do. You are saved by GRACE through FAITH, this is NOT of YOURSELF, but a GIFT from GOD. Ephesians 2:8 I don't know about you guys, but where I'm come from, you don't earn GIFTS! Here is an article that I think sums it up. I encourage you to read it from start to finish.

One of the most hotly debated points of doctrine (apart from the timing of the Rapture) among Christians of different denominations is the question of eternal security. Specifically, can a believer who was saved fall away and lose his salvation? Is there an unforgiveable sin for which a believer can be condemned?

Those who would argue yes are just as sincere in their doctrinal view as those who take the other side, and both sides have Scripture to support their view.

I thought it might be good to take a look at the Scriptures used by those say the Bible teaches that a believer can lose his salvation.

In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 Paul writes, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." Is this referring to the falling away of part of the True Church?

First, let's look at what falling away means in the context of the believer. The term 'fall away' was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a 'falling away'. (see Matt 26:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation.

For the true believer it may involve a temporary period of 'backsliding' (an OT term not found in the New) or time of being out of fellowship with God.

There ARE times when for one reason or another, the believer is having difficulty in his Christian walk.

But a true believer would not however deny what they believe in their heart, even though their walk at that moment might not reflect what they believe.

But note that even though Jesus said they would 'fall away', in the very same context, he also said to Peter that he had prayed that his faith would not fail and when he returned, to strengthen his brethren. (Luke 22:32)

In other words, true believers may fall at times but their faith does not fail because Jesus intercedes for them.

Concerning this intercession we are told, "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us" (Romans 11:2)

We need that intercession most when we are struggling, yet some believers will argue that it is when we need the Lord most that He abandons us to our sin.

See also John 17:6-12 concerning this intercession by Jesus for His believers. In this High Priestly prayer, Jesus makes it clear that the ones that God has given Him he keeps safe.

And Romans 8:32-34 cites Jesus' intercession as proof we cannot be separated from the love of Christ.

The 'great apostasy' of the last days is not referring to saved believers, but is instead referencing the kind of doctrinal dumbing down that would allow an openly homosexual Episcopalian priest to be elevated to the bishopric, or the attack on the Boy Scouts for not admitting homosexuals.

Jesus said this time would be like the days of Noah and Lot - "every imagination of the thoughts of [men's] heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) with rampant homosexuality (Genesis 19:8).

Hebrews 6:4-6 is often used to 'prove' a believer can lose salvation. It says, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

It appears on the surface to say that a believer can lose his salvation, but if you read it closely, it teaches the exact opposite.

It teaches that the believer cannot be renewed to repentance (born again - again!) because it would require crucifying the Lord again, and 'putting Him to an open shame'.

If this passage teaches that a believer could lose his salvation, then it also teaches that believer is forever damned and beyond repentance. You cannot interpret 'impossible' in this passage to mean anything except 'impossible'.

And the 'open shame' Paul says it would expose the Lord to is that He failed to keep all that God had given Him, as He said in His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Then there is the passage in Hebrews 10:26-27 which says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

First, the book of Hebrews was written TO the Hebrews (1st century Jewish believers). That doesn't mean it is irrelevant to the Church, but there is a context here.

For a Jew to become a Christian in the first century was a death sentence as far as their relationship with their family was concerned. They lost any right to an inheritance and came under extreme pressure (including physical persecution) to leave Christ and go back to Judaism. And that is what many did, even though for a while they looked like true believers.

The 'wilful sin" mentioned in verse 26 is linked to the verse before it because it starts with for if.. .

The verse before it is speaking of leaving the assembly of believers. The 'wilful sin' that this passage talks about is leaving Christ and going back to Judaism.

Under the Judaism they were going back to, there no longer remained a sacrifice for sin (vs 26) (because God didn t accept animal sacrifices anymore after Jesus had died for all sin, for all time.)

Another commonly misinterpeted Scripture refers to 'a branch that doesn t bare fruit will be cast into the fire.'

1 Corinthians 1 Cor 3:15 clearly states that for a true believer, even if their work is burned up (ie no fruit) they are still saved, but as one who escapes 'as by fire'. They are in Heaven, but they have no rewards.

Scripture never contradicts Scripture.

Another proof text used to prove salvation is dependent on doing good works is James 2:26; "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

This is another verse that is purported to prove one thing, but in fact, proves the opposite.

By definition, one who is saved cannot have 'dead' faith, since it is their faith that has saved them in the first place. Someone may have a belief, or head knowledge that certain facts are true without giving themselves over to that belief.

James 2:19 says, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Believing in God is not the same has having faith in Christ.

Dead faith is simply a head knowledge that cannot save.

Consider this; I know all about George Bush, but he doesn't know me -- that is to say, I have no personal relationship with George Bush, but I believe he is the president.

There are many who know all about Jesus, and might even profess to believe He is God, but have no personal relationship with Him. Works arising from that kind of relationship is by definition, dead, since it bears no eternal fruit.

The Scriptures clearly establish that a genuine conversion will stand no matter how great the adversity. "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down" (Psalms 37:24)

The Apostle Paul told believers to put on the whole armor of God.

"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." (Ephesians 6:13-17).

On the battlefield, the most effective way to dispatch an opponent is to go for a head shot.

Paul refers to the 'helmet of salvation' -- if you know you are saved, eternally, the enemy can never take you out of the game.

He can't use guilt to stop you from witnessing. He can't convince you that aren't really saved. He can't convince you that you are unworthy to carry the Gospel to the lost. In short, he can't take that 'head shot' that would render a believer useless to the cause of Christ.

In these last days, the Scripture says that Satan will pull out all the stops, 'because he knows he hath but a short time'.

Those of us who are properly equipped with the truth, the knowledge that we are covered by the righteousness of Christ, are prepared with a knowledge of the Gospel, which we are prepared to share in peace, secure in our faith and certain of our standing before Him are formidable opponents in the battle for the souls of men.

"And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:27)

The battle has been joined. And our victory is assured.

Don't let anyone rob you of your weapons.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)

HeadStrongBoy
Jan 30, 2011, 10:35 AM
Nrice

The battle has been joined. And our victory is assured.

Don't let anyone rob you of your weapons.

Your article presents some interesting points and arguments. And I too happen to be persuaded that OSAS (once saved always saved).

Though ultimately, the battle is not ours, but it is the Lord's. "And all this assembly shall know that Jehovah saveth not with sword and spear. For the battle is Jehovah's, and He will give you into our hands." 1 Samuel 17:47

saintjoan
Feb 7, 2011, 06:43 PM
To quote the Apostle Paul:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

saintjoan
Feb 7, 2011, 06:46 PM
Hi Headstrong:
To quote a guy much wiser than I:
“It is He who calls it Eternal life. If it can possibly have an end, it is not eternal. If it is everlasting, it must last forever. When He says eternal he means just that. We need not argue. We need not cite cases. We need not quote other passages. One clear positive declaration of His and the case is closed. We leave the rest to a mind far greater than our own.” The Seven great I ams Archibald Campbell, Christian Literature Crusade, 1968, page 97.

sophiacat1
Feb 13, 2011, 03:19 PM
Are we really running our whole country on a belief that everyone who has faith will have eternal life, no matter what they do? And that the only punishment for sin by a saved person, is earthly punishment in the form of accidents and illness?

Then why do people trust only Christians to elected office? Not because we can expect more ethical decisions and behavior, but that a Christian leader may protect the country from earthly disasters and dangers?

I wonder if the public in general understands this. That's why the Christians want to whole country to be Christian, so our country will be blessed by good luck and protected.

Remember when that Christian leader (Falwell?) blamed Katrina on New Orleans being sinful? By this set of beliefs, he was serious.

I think the country does not understand the attitude of a politician like George W. Bush, who said he was saved. Then he never cared if he started a war, made poor people suffer, or spent the country into bankruptcy. He was saved, so he didn't care. He also believed he was anointed by God to be President.

This is a very screwed up belif system. I doubt if most people even are aware of it. No wonder we are in such an illogical mess as a country. We are being governed by people with irrational ideas about hwo reality works.

dwashbur
Feb 13, 2011, 05:51 PM
Are we really running our whole country on a belief that everyone who has faith will have eternal life, no matter what they do? And that the only punishment for sin by a saved person, is earthly punishment in the form of accidents and illness?

Then why do people trust only Christians to elected office? Not because we can expect more ethical decisions and behavior, but that a Christian leader may protect the country from earthly disasters and dangers?

I wonder if the public in general understands this. That's why the Christians want to whole country to be Christian, so our country will be blessed by good luck and protected.

Remember when that Christian leader (Falwell?) blamed Katrina on New Orleans being sinful? By this set of beliefs, he was serious.

I think the country does not understand the attitude of a politician like George W. Bush, who said he was saved. Then he never cared if he started a war, made poor people suffer, or spent the country into bankruptcy. He was saved, so he didn't care. He also believed he was anointed by God to be President.

This is a very screwed up belif system. I doubt if most people even are aware of it. No wonder we are in such an illogical mess as a country. We are being governed by people with irrational ideas about hwo reality works.

I'm not sure what the point is or how we got onto politics. Nobody ever said Christians are perfect, or even good. We're just forgiven. That's what makes the difference. It has nothing to do with politics, and most of us really don't want to run the country. I'm sorry, but this sort of came out of left field.

saintjoan
Feb 13, 2011, 08:35 PM
Hi Sophia
There are many who claim to be Christians but are not saved.
The Bible makes it clear that those who have truly been saved will be a new creation:
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21-23 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

dwashbur
Feb 15, 2011, 11:59 AM
Hi Sophia
There are many who claim to be Christians but are not saved.
The Bible makes it clear that those who have truly been saved will be a new creation:
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21-23 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

While I agree with this, it's not the only answer. Not all Christians who mess up are not really saved. We're still human, so we do dumb things. Sometimes the theology behind our behavior is no more complicated than that.

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 21, 2011, 11:41 PM
dwashbur said: Not all Christians who mess up are not really saved. We're still human, so we do dumb things.

I'm quoting the above because I want to repeat that our personal salvation does not depend on our behavior (good or bad) in the first place. Also our salvation does not depend on our getting baptized with water, or being a church member.

Our salvation depends entirely upon God choosing us, and upon Him having made payment for our sins. That includes justification and what some on this site have called sanctification. The way I understand the word sanctification (it means to be made holy), there is no difference between sanctification and justification. When a person is justified (has all their sins forgiven), they are in effect made holy (sanctified). However all of that activity has occurred only in their soul existence. Their body remains under the law of sin and death. That is why a conflict exists in the Christian who has been born again. All of Romans chapter 7 speaks about this conflict.

saintjoan
Feb 23, 2011, 08:13 PM
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

That grace is available to whosoever will:
Revelation 22:17 And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There are carnal believers (1 Corinthians 3:1), who will make it into heaven. (1 Corinthians 3:15). However we should expect those who have truly been saved to show a change in their lives because they have been saved.

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 23, 2011, 09:03 PM
saintjoan said: That grace is available to whosoever will:
Revelation 22:17 And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I know that the verse you've quoted seems crystal clear when it stands by itself. The problem is that we do not have truth until we examine every verse in the light of the whole Bible. Take for example Ezekiel 36:24 through 27. There God is clearly indicating that all the action of saving His people is God's action alone. They can read the Bible (take of the water of life), but they cannot give themselves a new heart or a new spirit.

dwashbur
Feb 24, 2011, 12:23 AM
I know that the verse you've quoted seems crystal clear when it stands by itself. The problem is that we do not have truth until we examine every verse in the light of the whole Bible. Take for example Ezekiel 36:24 through 27. There God is clearly indicating that all the action of saving His people is God's action alone. They can read the Bible (take of the water of life), but they cannot give themselves a new heart or a new spirit.

So explain please how the two may be reconciled.

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 24, 2011, 02:07 AM
dwashbur said: So explain please how the two may be reconciled.

I'm not trying to be evasive, but please specify exactly what "two" you're referring to. I could guess what's on your mind. But I'd rather not do that.

saintjoan
Feb 24, 2011, 07:38 AM
Hey Headstrongboy: Our final authority must be the Bible not John Calvin:

A wiser man than you and I said:
Charles Spurgeon:
“Repent, and be baptized every one of you” said Peter. As John Bunyan puts it – one man might have stood up in the crowd and said, “But I helped hound him to the cross!” “Repent and be baptized every one of you” “But I drove the nails into His hands!” saith one. “Everyone of you,” says Peter. “But I pierced his side!” said another. “Everyone of you,” said Peter. “And I put my tongue into my cheek and stared at His nakedness and said, ‘If He be the Son of God, let him come down from the cross.’” “Every one of you,” said Peter. “Repent, and be baptized every one of you.” I do feel grieved at many of our Calvinistic brethren; They know nothing about Calvinism, I am sorry to say, for never was any man more caricatured by his professed followers than John Calvin. Many are afraid to preach from Peter’s text. “Repent and be baptized every one of you.” When I do it, they say, “He is unsound.” Well if I am unsound on this point, I have all the Puritans with me – the whole bunch of them almost without exception.” Hyper-Calvinism, a false doctrine, Dr. John R. Rice, Sword of the Lord Publishers, 1970, page 15

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 25, 2011, 05:29 AM
saintjoan said: Hey Headstrongboy: Our final authority must be the Bible not John Calvin:

I fail to see why you've addressed the comment about John Calvin to me. I do not follow Calvin. Neither do I quote him. To make my point I have quoted from scriptures, not from church fathers, as you have.

saintjoan
Feb 25, 2011, 05:58 AM
Charles Spurgeon is not a church father. Neither is John Calvin. All men are called to salvation. We have the responsibility to respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, as revealed in Ezekiel 33.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Glad to see that you are not a Calvinist.

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 25, 2011, 06:45 AM
saintjoan said: All men are called to salvation. We have the responsibility to respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, as revealed in Ezekiel 33. Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I agree that God commands all men (and women) to repent. And I agree that God holds us all responsible for our sins (failure to repent).

However, to get the complete picture we should also look at Jeremiah 17:9. "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it ?"

Such a heart is not capable of repenting, by it's own power.

The solution to this apparently impossible predicament is found in Ezekiel 36:26. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

When God has first done that... then the individual will be able to repent, and believe, and do all the other good works expected of a new creature.

classyT
Feb 25, 2011, 01:25 PM
Headstrong,

Buddy ol pal,

How in the world can a JUST God hold us all responisible! According your theology... Even though I have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior by grace through faith I may not be saved. Because according to YOU God has already hand picked the people who will be saved and WE humans have NOTHING in the world to do with it. It's a tad screwy... even for me.

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 25, 2011, 01:48 PM
classyT said: How in the world can a JUST God hold us all responisible!

Not a single word of the Bible has changed in my theology. The wages of sin is (still) death. Those who are not saved still die (for ever). The problem is in your understanding of salvation. We are not in charge of selecting ourselves to be saved. No way, no how !!

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 25, 2011, 02:07 PM
classyT: WE humans have NOTHING in the world to do with it.

I would modify what you've said somewhat. We can put ourselves into an environment where God is saving people. That environment consists of two parts. [A] Hearing (or reading) the gospel. Because "faith cometh by hearing." And [B] humility. Trying to be as obedient as possible to all the commandments of God. Believing and accepting Jesus is a commandment. You've done that. Good for you.

But none of that is a guarantee. Because those things are all our works. And none of our works can save us.

dwashbur
Feb 25, 2011, 02:28 PM
I would modify what you've said somewhat. We can put ourselves into an environment where God is saving people. That environment consists of two parts. [A] Hearing (or reading) the gospel. Because "faith cometh by hearing." And [B] humility. Trying to be as obedient as possible to all the commandments of God. Believing and accepting Jesus is a commandment. You've done that. Good for you.

But none of that is a guarantee. Because those things are all our works. And none of our works can save us.

I think it might be helpful if you would just set out, point by point, how salvation comes to a person in your view. Start at the beginning: God chooses, or whatever. What's the process from there, and how do hearing, believing etc. fit into the picture?

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 25, 2011, 03:43 PM
dwashbur: I think it might be helpful if you would just set out, point by point, how salvation comes to a person in your view.
The following outline is in chronological order. Is that what you mean ?
[1] God formulated a plan.
[2] God selected and named all the individuals that He would save throughout all time.
[3] God laid all the sins of those to be saved on Christ. And Christ died completely (body and soul).
[4] God raised Christ from death and gave Him a new name. My Only Begotten Son.
[5] Some time after number [4] Christ created this present universe and Adam and Eve on Earth.
[6] Sin entered the picture, and the whole human race became infected with "original sin." All became subject to death. Satan became the spiritual ruler of mankind. Except for a chosen few.
[7] God saved righteous Abel because He had made payment for Abel's sins. The same can be said for all the other saved people of the Old Testament.
[8] All the Old Testament sacrifices were only a picture of what Christ had already done.
[9] In 33 AD Christ made a final demonstration of what He had already done before He created the world.
[10] In our day salvation still works exactly the same way. A chosen individual "hears" the word of God. It doesn't have to be a lot of the Bible. The Ninevites only heard that in 40 days they'd be destroyed. That was God's word to them. They believed, and they repented because God had already named and chosen them before the creation.
[11] In our day the full gospel is that May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment. We can know because God has unsealed much information from the Bible that has been 'hidden' until now. But we do not have to know all of that detail. Salvation still works exactly the same way. Those whom God has chosen will believe.

sophiacat1
Feb 25, 2011, 10:15 PM
"In our day the full gospel is that May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment". Not a day too soon, if you ask me.

If everybody is still here on May 22, will your little world of psychosis come tumbling down? Maybe you will tattoo "I AM A GULLIBLE JACKASS" on your forehead, and STFU with all your testifying. Jesus told you to pray in your closet, and not make a spectacle of yourself showing off how religious you are.

godsword
Feb 25, 2011, 10:21 PM
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowlage of the truth, There remaineth NO MORE Sacrifice for sins.
This simply means, to know you are sinning, and you keep sinning. You are crucifing Jesus Christ over and over again.
Hebrews 10:27 goes on to say: But a cirtain Fearful for Judgementand Fiery ingignation , which shall devour the adversaries.
Its not that had to understand People.
STOP SINNING, or GO TO HELL.

Galatians 6:7, Do NOT be DECIVED, GOD is NOT MOCKED,For whatsoever a man Soweth, that he shall also Reap.

Do we think we can Sin willfully keep on Sinning, Do we think we can keep nailing Jesus Christ on the cross, Then ask for Forgivness. And keep nailing Him on The Cross, So we can Ask for forgivness AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

Im praying For you all, May GOD open the eyes of all those that SATAN has blinded. AMEN.

HeadStrongBoy
Feb 26, 2011, 03:39 AM
sophiacat1: Jesus told you to pray in your closet, and not make a spectacle of yourself showing off how religious you are.

I agree. But He also said that a candle must not be hid under a bushel basket.

saintjoan
Feb 26, 2011, 05:49 AM
Hey Headstrongboy. Ezekiel 36:26 is a great promise, but it is a promise given to the Jews. In context it is speaking of the time when God will bring back his chosen people into the promised land.
Ezekiel 36:26-28 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

sophiacat1
Feb 26, 2011, 05:56 AM
Google "The Great Disappointment of 1844". First it was going to be March 21. 1844. Then, being disappointed, but still thinking such a thing could be foretold, it was to be April 18, 1844. They were quite disappointed again. Then they just had to get on with their lives. Unfortunately, many of them had given away all of their earthly possessions in advance of the Big Day.

Believe whatever you want, it's nothing to me. I'm not an atheist, but for sure some of you have gone around the bend. Use the brain God gave you.

saintjoan
Feb 26, 2011, 05:56 AM
Hi sofiacat. On May 22nd, I will be celebrating my birthday. The day of judgment will not come on May 21st. Before that day comes, there will be a future 7 year tribulation period, then the 1000 year kingdom of Jesus on earth.

I find it interesting that you know a secret that even our Lord does know:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

saintjoan
Feb 26, 2011, 06:04 AM
Hi dwashbir: Paul said the gospel was very simple:
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The simple gosple is found in John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

J_9
Feb 26, 2011, 07:16 AM
Four year old thread closed. OP has never returned.