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arcura
May 15, 2010, 09:15 PM
I have been told that there are several passages that tell us about last rites sometimes called extreme unction.
Please help for I do not know them.
I do know that the bible tells us to go to The Church for healing.
While there we do [ray for those who are ill and the pastor does go to visit those who are sick, some in the hospital as I recently was.
But I do not know all the passages concerning last rites.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

dwashbur
May 15, 2010, 10:30 PM
I have been told that there are several passages that tell us about last rites sometimes called extreme unction.
Please help for I do not know them.
I do know that the bible tells us to go to The Church for healing.
While there we do [ray for those who are ill and the pastor does go to visit those who are sick, some in the hospital as I recently was.
But I do not know all the passages concerning last rites.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

I don't know of any. As far as I know, extreme unction is a creation of the church in post-biblical times.

arcura
May 15, 2010, 10:41 PM
dwashbur,
Extreme Unction is last rights and it is biblicaly based.
I just don't know the particular passages that indicate it.
I know that it has to do with healing of the sick.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl
May 15, 2010, 11:00 PM
The Last Rites is never taught in the Bible, and no Bible person ever gave or received the Last Rites.

The ritual probably came from the healing that was told about here --

When Jesus sent out the twelve disciples to preach, "they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them" (Mark 6:13). In his epistle, James says, "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up [i.e. heal him]; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven" (Jas. 5:14–15).

arcura
May 15, 2010, 11:09 PM
Wondergirl,
Sorry aboutn that but I do know that it is in the bible.
Last rites or anointing the sick does this...
The special grace of the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick has as its effects:
* the uniting of the sick person to the passion of Christ, for his own good and that of the whole Church;
* the strengthening, peace, and courage to endure in a Christian manner the sufferings of illness or old age;
* the forgiveness of sins, if the sick person was not able to obtain it through the sacrament of penance;
* the restoration of health, if it is conducive to the salvation of his soul;
* the preparation for passing over to eternal life.
I just do not know what passages refer to it.
Perhaps here I'll find out.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl
May 16, 2010, 12:02 AM
I've checked the Catholic Encyclopedia and a whole bunch of Catholic sites. The only verses that are quoted regarding "last rites" are the ones I've already posted. This was on one Catholic site --

The most important part of the last rites is the reception of the Lord in one’s final Communion, also called "Viaticum" (Latin = that which you take on the road, i.e., provisions for a journey) This special Communion prepares us to travel with the Lord on the final part of our journey.

The comfort of Viaticum has been valued by Christians since the beginning of Church history. The first ecumenical council, held at Nicaea in 325, decreed: "Concerning the departing, the ancient canonical law is still to be maintained, to wit, that, if any man be at the point of death, he must not be deprived of the last and most indispensable Viaticum" (canon 13). Having repented of our sins and received reconciliation, we travel with the Lord Jesus out of this earthly life and to eternal happiness with him in heaven.

Apparently it was the Council of Nicea that set the ritual into motion.
********************
Wikipedia says this --

The chief Biblical text concerning the rite is James 5:14-15: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven." (RSV)

Matthew 10:8, Luke 10:8-9 and Mark 6:13 are also quoted in this regard.
********************
Here is a link to that part of the Catechism (note the section on the Viaticum) --

USCCB - Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2art5.shtml)

RickJ
May 16, 2010, 10:20 AM
Here is a good article to review:
Anointing of the Sick (http://www.catholic.com/library/Anointing_of_the_Sick.asp)

Wondergirl
May 16, 2010, 11:23 AM
Here is a good article to review:
Anointing of the Sick (http://www.catholic.com/library/Anointing_of_the_Sick.asp)
I posted that already earlier --

"Here is a link to that part of the Catechism (note the section on the Viaticum) --

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2art5.shtml"

dwashbur
May 16, 2010, 11:58 AM
dwashbur,
Extreme Unction is last rights and it is biblicaly based.
I just don't know the particular passages that indicate it.
I know that it has to do with healing of the sick.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'm aware of what it is but there is no biblical passage of which I am aware that either mandates it or gives an example.

arcura
May 16, 2010, 09:32 PM
Wondergirl and others.
This is what I've been asking for.
"The chief Biblical text concerning the rite is James 5:14-15: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven." (RSV)

Matthew 10:8, Luke 10:8-9 and Mark 6:13 are also quoted in this regard."

I knew it was in there somewhere for all such sanctified activities are based on what the bible says.
Thanks much.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl
May 16, 2010, 11:06 PM
Wondergirl and others.
This is what I've been asking for.
"The chief Biblical text concerning the rite is James 5:14-15: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven." (RSV)

Matthew 10:8, Luke 10:8-9 and Mark 6:13 are also quoted in this regard."

I knew it was in there somewhere for all such sanctified activities are based on what the bible says.
But those verses do not mandate last rites. They okay anointing with oil for healing. The Council of Nicea okayed last rites.

arcura
May 16, 2010, 11:26 PM
Wondergirl,
That's OK IF you want to believe that way.
But The Church's theologians, the best in the world, see it as I do.
After all, think of it this way...
During last rites an ill person is anointed and sometimes they get well. That's anointing the sick.
But those who are on the threshold of death and are anointed their sins are forgiven. They are in a state of grace and can enter heaven spotlessly.
That is the last rites, the last they will receive in this world.
A few weeks ago I was in the hospital. I had hemorrhaged 4 pints of blood and had a heart attack.
If I had got to the point where death was certain or nearly so the priest, hospital chaplain, would have anointed me.
As it turned out I was successfully given 4 pints of blood and very good care, and was given the holy Eucharist , so I am still here, praise God.
Needless to say I am a firm believer in last rites.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl
May 17, 2010, 09:16 AM
Wondergirl,
That's OK IF you want to believe that way.
But The Church's theologians, the best in the world, see it as I do.
Right. It's the Church's theologians that spun it into an anointing at the time when death threatens. The Bible verses refer only to anointing to heal. It has nothing to do with what I "want."

But those who are on the threshold of death and are anointed their sins are forgiven. They are in a state of grace and can enter heaven spotlessly.
That is the last rites, the last they will receive in this world.
Yes, from the Council of Nicea, from the Church Fathers.

You weren't given last rites, were you? You were anointed for healing. Or do you consider them the same -- you could get well or you could die, but the anointing is a type of pray for forgiveness for each.

donf
May 17, 2010, 10:11 AM
From the Catholic perspective, here is the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia for Extreme Unction complete with Biblical cites.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Extreme Unction (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm)

classyT
May 17, 2010, 11:32 AM
Fred,

Lets check out what James says in the Bible exactly:

James 5:14-15 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

That is the only passage in the Bible I know of that you could be referring to.

EDIT: sorry wondergirl already referenced the verse. I don't see how last rites apply at all though.

classyT
May 17, 2010, 11:51 AM
Hmmmm?
I knew it was in there somewhere for all such sanctified activities are based on what the bible says.


I struggle with that word "based". You are trying to make the last rites fit in these biblical passages and it just isn't there.

donf
May 17, 2010, 01:36 PM
I really do not believe that the Anointing of the sick can be the last rites.

I suggest that the last rites are those administrated at the funeral Mass.

Now don't yell at me if you disagree. To me there is a difference between being sick and being dead.

One you can recover from and can receive the Sacrament again.

The other is final.

If I get some spare time, I will scratch around my note from Diaconate class and see if I can find anything. I would not hold out much hope though, I have not referenced them since 2005.

Wondergirl
May 17, 2010, 01:42 PM
hmmmm?

I struggle with that word "based". You are trying to make the last rites fit in these biblical passages and it just isn't there.
I totally agree. There's nothing wrong with receiving last rites from a priest or minister, but just don't claim it's a Biblical command or exhortation. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia tap dances around that.

JoeT777
May 17, 2010, 07:34 PM
I have been told that there are several passages that tell us about last rites sometimes called extreme unction.
Please help for I do not know them.
I do know that the bible tells us to go to The Church for healing.
While there we do [ray for those who are ill and the pastor does go to visit those who are sick, some in the hospital as I recently was.
But I do not know all the passages concerning last rites.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Extreme Unction is a term that came about in the twelfth century to refer to the last sacrament. The Catholic encyclopedia suggest it’s name came from “the unction of those in extremis (dying),” i.e. sacramentum exeuntium. It is a sacrament instituted by Christ for perfect confession and spiritual health. It’s my understanding, the Roman Church includes a sacramental blessing of the five senses, by applying holy oils over the eyes, ears, nose, lips, hands, along with the feet. Prayers are said for the pardon of the penitent’s sins. Most would agree, eastern and western Rites, that this was taught both In the Tradition of the Apostles and in Scripture; “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.” (James 5:14)

Add:


CC1510: However, the apostolic Church has its own rite for the sick, attested to by St. James: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders [presbyters] of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven." Tradition has recognized in this rite one of the seven sacraments.

CCC 1511: The Church believes and confesses that among the seven sacraments there is one especially intended to strengthen those who are being tried by illness, the Anointing of the Sick:


This sacred anointing of the sick was instituted by Christ our Lord as a true and proper sacrament of the New Testament. It is alluded to indeed by Mark, but is recommended to the faithful and promulgated by James the apostle and brother of the Lord.

CCC 1512: From ancient times in the liturgical traditions of both East and West, we have testimonies to the practice of anointings of the sick with blessed oil. Over the centuries the Anointing of the Sick was conferred more and more exclusively on those at the point of death. Because of this it received the name "Extreme Unction." Notwithstanding this evolution the liturgy has never failed to beg the Lord that the sick person may recover his health if it would be conducive to his salvation.

CCC 1513: The Apostolic Constitution Sacram unctionem infirmorum, following upon the Second Vatican Council, established that henceforth, in the Roman Rite, the following be observed:


The sacrament of Anointing of the Sick is given to those who are seriously ill by anointing them on the forehead and hands with duly blessed oil - pressed from olives or from other plants - saying, only once: "Through this holy anointing may the Lord in his love and mercy help you with the grace of the Holy Spirit. May the Lord who frees you from sin save you and raise you up."


Also see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Extreme Unction (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm)

JoeT

JoeT777
May 17, 2010, 08:07 PM
I totally agree. There's nothing wrong with receiving last rites from a priest or minister, but just don't claim it's a Biblical command or exhortation. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia tap dances around that.

No need to dance or tap. Just knock on the door. Knowing how you hate to read references from the Catholic encyclopedia – as they say in these parts, I brung it to you;



Mark 6:13, and James 5:14-15 … (1) that there is mention only of bodily healing as its effect (cf. Matthew 10:1; Luke 9:1-2); (2) that many of those anointed had probably not received Christian baptism; (3) that the Apostles had not yet been ordained priests; and (4) that penance, of which extreme unction is the complement, had not yet been instituted as a sacrament. Hence the guarded statement of the Council of Trent that extreme unction as a sacrament is merely "insinuated" in St. Mark, i.e. hinted at or prefigured in the miraculous unction which the Apostles employed, just as Christian baptism had been prefigured by the baptism of John.

The text of St. James reads: "Is any man sick among you? …The priests are to pray over the sick man, anointing him with oil. Here we have the physical elements necessary to constitute a sacrament in the strict sense: oil as remote matter, like water in baptism; the anointing as proximate matter, like immersion or infusion in baptism; and the accompanying prayer as form. This rite will therefore be a true sacrament if it has the sanction of Christ's authority, and is intended by its own operation to confer grace on the sick person, to work for his spiritual benefit. … It may be admitted that the words "the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up", taken by themselves and apart from the context, might possibly be applied to mere bodily healing; but the words that follow, "and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him", speak expressly of a spiritual effect involving the bestowal of grace. This being so, and it being further assumed that the remission of sins is given by St. James as an effect of the prayer-unction, nothing is more reasonable than to hold that St. James is thinking of spiritual as well as of bodily effects when he speaks of the sick man being "saved" and "raised up".

… A few verses further on the predominating spiritual and eschatological connotation of "saving" in St. James's mind emerges clearly in the expression, "shall save his soul from death" (v, 20), and without necessarily excluding a reference to deliverance from bodily death in verse 15, we are certainly justified in including in that verse a reference to the saving of the soul...
JoeT

Wondergirl
May 17, 2010, 09:06 PM
No need to dance or tap. Just knock on the door. knowing how you hate to read references from the Catholic encyclopedia – as they say in these parts, I brung it to you
I read it before I had posted, sweet Joe, and know whereof I speak (I do my homework). It was a decision of the Council of Nicea and the Church Fathers, not from Bible verses.

arcura
May 17, 2010, 09:45 PM
Joet,
Thank you much for that information.
I'm glad you went farther than others to show that James was also talking about saving the soul.
Praise God for the grace of His many sacraments.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl
May 17, 2010, 09:49 PM
I'm glad you went farther than others to show that James was also talking about saving the soul.
That's not the point under discussion, Fred. I have no argument with that, and totally agree, as would anyone else here.

arcura
May 17, 2010, 10:13 PM
Wondergirl,
It was a part of the point to me and always will be for I do believe that the saving ones soul is very important.
I'm glad that you have no argument with that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred