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  • Feb 21, 2012, 09:09 PM
    threebulldogs
    Drbill question on BAC
    Dr bill, I have a question on breath alcohol test. I received a dui in oct. And have been doing daily ba's since. I failed one in November, due to.a hangover. I have not failed one since until Sunday. I am 10 weeks pregnant and have not touched alcohol since I found out I was preganant at 4 weeks. On Sunday I had nothing at all to drink but when I went in for my ba I blew a .095. Immediately I blew again and I was at a .07 and a minute after that I blew a .08. I waited 15 minutes and blew again and was at a .06? How can that be? If it was booze would it go up and down like that in a 15 minute time span? I am in need of any help information or references u can offer to prove my innocence. Unfortunetly.there are people out there that will drink while pregnant and the "system" won't take my word for it. If there is anythi.g you can offer I appreciate it.
  • Feb 22, 2012, 05:19 PM
    DrBill100
    Are you sure of the readings... did you get a printout? Where was this conducted and what type of device?

    The figures are very high .095 would require at least 5 drinks within proximity to test.

    In addition an accurate reading could not fall by .035 in 15 minutes... that would require over 2 hours on average even assuming you were in the elimination phase. Otherwise the reading would have risen.*

    *See Alcohol metabolism for description of phases
  • Feb 23, 2012, 08:23 AM
    threebulldogs
    There was no printout. It was done at a private testing center that my pretrail has me going through for the daily ba's... It was done on a Lifeloc handheld BA machine. And as far as the numbers, yes those were the readings. I looked at the screen each time before I handed it to the monitor person. And the times are correct also, I blew saw the 0.09 reading, showed the lady, she told me to blow again I did, then I got the .07 reading and showed her, then blew one more time right away and got the .08. After the 3rd one, I waited the 15 minutes and then I blew the .06. My husband use to work at a prison where they gave BA's daily to inmates and he said if someone had alcohol in their system that the levels never really flucuated that much in that short of time, that they leveled out around the same number. I also read that a man in australia failed a ba because of eating ice cream before the test. The article said that some ice creams and foods contain higher levels of ketones and that is what the ba's test for, not actual alcohol. Is that correct? I am just flabergasted. I took an EtG, but my lawyer said that if there was some form of alcohol in my system that I there is a chance I am going to test positve on that also.. I just don't know what to do.. My husband was with me all day and knows that I didn't have any booze what so ever and is even signing a sworn document stating that. I am at a loss. They obviously won't take my word for it. My pt supervisor even told me that she has people on ba's who are pregnant who still drink so I am automatically categorized with those people.

    Sorry for the rant.. Just extremely frustrated and angry right now with our system.

    Thank you for any help you can offer. I didn't know where else to go and my roommate recommended this sight and you.
  • Feb 23, 2012, 09:31 AM
    DrBill100
    Procedurally, a re-test was required at the time. Was that the purpose of the EtG? Was it performed in proximity of the BrAC? Also, how do you know it was EtG. The proper test would have been UA for EtOH not EtG. You could not have registered .06 BrAC w/o measurable EtOH in urine... if you had been drinking.

    There are indeed a myriad of reasons for erroneous readings on hand-held field unit BrACs. The main problem is that they are sensitive to any type of alcohol, not just beverage ethanol. But first lets figure out what tests were used in confirmation of the BrAC.

    How long has it been since the test?

    Your lawyer is probably mistaken about the value of EtG. It was not the proper test, if in fact it was used, but it was their choice, I assume, and it will not be positive unless you had consumed more than 3 drinks in the past 48 hours. In addition it means that there is another sample retained by the lab for re-test that can be used for EtOH testing. Much has to do with when the EtG was performed. Timing.
  • Feb 23, 2012, 10:26 AM
    threebulldogs
    The EtG was suggested by my lawyer as well as required by the pretrial supervisor since I failed the BrAc. The EtG was taken on Monday in the evening, not the sameday I failed, which I noticed I wrote the wrong day, it was Saturday, not Sunday that the brac was failed. ( not sure if that makes a difference or not). I am still doing daily brac's and they have all been zeros. I won't have the results from the EtG till Friday. I am nervous still, although I didn't drink any booze, my lawyer said if I accidentally ingested a form of alcohol, whether it was Thursday, Friday Saturday Sunday or Monday, the EtG can still show up positive. I just feel lost.. I don't know how to prove I did not intentionally or knowingly ingest alcohol.
  • Feb 23, 2012, 11:26 AM
    DrBill100
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by threebulldogs View Post
    The etg was suggested by my lawyer as well as required by the pretrial supervisor since I failed the BrAc. The etg was taken on Monday in the evening, not the sameday I failed, which I noticed I wrote the wrong day, it was saturday, not sunday that the brac was failed. ( not sure if that makes a difference or not). I am still doing daily brac's and they have all been zeros. I wont have the results from the etg till friday. I am nervous still, although I didnt drink any booze, my lawyer said if I accidentally ingested a form of alcohol, whether it was thursday, friday saturday sunday or monday, the etg can still show up positive. I just feel lost.. I dont know how to prove I did not intentionally or knowingly ingest alcohol.

    If I'm understanding the sequence of events, you registered a BrAC at the test center and you were allowed to leave without providing another sample of any type, urine, saliva or blood? There was no confirmatory test performed? Nothing to support the reading but the observations of the technician and you.

    Your lawyer's misunderstanding of the test probably accrues to your benefit. It is regularly misrepresented that the EtG is sensitive to "even small amounts of alcohol" for up to 5 days. That isn't even close to accurate. EtG is created by small amounts of alcohol but incidental exposure via food, inhalation, etc are eliminated within hours of the exposure.(1) I don't wish to downplay the significance of this type of incidental exposure, it can lead to false positives but only when the exposure is within hours of the test.

    Even if you had consumed 3-4 (consistent with BrAC reading) drinks it still wouldn't show up on an EtG test 48 hours later.(2) Failure to understand the actual limitations benefits you as there is widespread dependence on this 80-120 hour fallacy promoted by commercial testing industry and popular media. With no EtG present they can but assume the BrAC was in error.

    Your EtG level will not rise above detection at that time interval. So you can relax. For once maybe the test will be of benefit.

    NOTICE: Any person or entity that is subjected to or relies on EtG testing should read this Advisory issued by the US Department of Health and Human Services, September 2006 and remains in effect as of date of this posting.

    1) Musshoff, 2010
    2) Helander, 2009 p. 59
  • Feb 23, 2012, 12:26 PM
    threebulldogs
    You are understanding correctly. After the last brac reading of .06 I left the testing center, without any further tests being done. They then reported it to the pretrial on Monday, which is when they called and told me I needed to do the EtG test.

    I have been reading on ETG's, what I've read is that exposure to sanitary wipes and hand sanitizers to purell can cause a false positive. You said it is gone with in a couple of hours after exposure.. so now my question is would the handsanitizer I used throughout the day and the sanitizer wipes I used at the gym 20 minutes before the test show up? Or is this type of exposure just internet myth?

    Thanks again for your help, I do really appreciate it.
  • Feb 23, 2012, 12:55 PM
    DrBill100
    Ethanol based hand sanitizer can cause EtG but usually requires multiple and continued exposure. It is generally accepted that this results from the inhalation of fumes rather than dermal exposure. However, it is not myth but derived from actual studies.(1,2 as ex.) This phenomenon was first reported by Dr. Greg Skipper (2006). Here is a link to his site: Ethylglucuronide which may also contain other info of value to you.

    1) Rosano & Lin
    2) Starkie
  • Feb 23, 2012, 01:28 PM
    threebulldogs
    Thank you very much Dr. Bill!! You have been a great help. I appreciate all the information. I have one last question, do you have a reliable link that gives examples of what could have possible set off the Brac machine? I am just curious. That day I had malt o meal, cesear salad and a homemade triple berry smoothie that I drank right before the test. Again I thank you very very much for all your information.
  • Feb 23, 2012, 01:57 PM
    DrBill100
    The hand held field test BrAC are not meant to be determinative. They are a screening device that requires a confirmatory test. Please note that is not a legal but rather a scientific observation. They are approved for use on that basis... that there will be a confirmatory test.

    Your best resource for specific information is a DWI lawyer. The legal profession has ripped these devices apart and you will find many reported flaws. Google the specific unit and DWI lawyer and I'll bet you find tons of info.

    Beyond the basic use and operation I have little info on the units as my focus is laboratory testing.
  • Feb 23, 2012, 02:39 PM
    threebulldogs
    Thank you again for all your information. You have been very helpful and I appreciate it very much.

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