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    ilsils's Avatar
    ilsils Posts: 32, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jan 10, 2008, 03:34 PM
    heat pump takes a long time (hour or more) to raise the temperature
    An HVAC guy just installed a Carrier 13 SEER heat pump, model number 25HBR, to heat/cool (forced air) the upstairs (10 ft ceilings) of my house (2800 sq ft) in the Washington DC area. The downstairs and basement are heated/cooled by a gas furnace/AC system. So far, I'm disappointed that the heat pump doesn't heat very well. When the temperature dipped below 30F at night, it took two hours in the morning to raise the upstairs temperature from 60F to 66F. The HVAC guy said that heat pumps work that way: they take a long time to heat, unlike the downstairs gas furnace. I've adjusted baffles and had him check the exchanger pressure (OK), fuses, etc , but the heat pump still takes a long time (hour or more) to raise the temperature from 59 to 66 the morning after modestly cool (<40F) nights. Is this to be expected? ILS^2 :confused:
    hvac1000's Avatar
    hvac1000 Posts: 14,540, Reputation: 435
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    #2

    Jan 10, 2008, 03:52 PM
    Heat pumps take a good amount of time to raise temperature. I never recommend a set back thermostat be used with a heat pump. Never expect a heat pump to heat as well and as fast as gas so you might as well adjust to the situation.

    Many years ago when a customer would complain about how long the heat pump took to heat up we just used to bridge in a 5 kw heat strip to run with the heat pump. It solved the slow heat problem but did not help the electric bill.

    Since we are not there to run a actual test on your system you will have to trust the dealer you chose to do the work. I am sure you got 2 or 3 estimates and checked out how good the companys work was before you hired them.
    ilsils's Avatar
    ilsils Posts: 32, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Jan 10, 2008, 07:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by hvac1000
    Heat pumps take a good amount of time to raise temperature. I never recommend a set back thermostat be used with a heat pump. Never expect a heat pump to heat as well and as fast as gas so you might as well adjust to the situation.

    Many years ago when a customer would complain about how long the heat pump took to heat up we just used to bridge in a 5 kw heat strip to run with the heat pump. It solved the slow heat problem but did not help the electric bill.

    Since we are not there to run a actual test on your system you will have to trust the dealer you chose to do the work. I am sure you got 2 or 3 estimates and checked out how good the companys work was before you hired them.
    hvac1000,
    Thanks for the honest reply. I didn't realize the HP's limitations to heat. From a comfort standpoint, I might have been better off with a bigger furnace/AC, more ducts, etc.. . Will I have the same problem when it's hot, i.e. will the AC stop cooling when it gets above 90F? ILS^2
    T-Top's Avatar
    T-Top Posts: 1,871, Reputation: 100
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    #4

    Jan 10, 2008, 07:43 PM
    To raise the temp from 60 to 66 with the out side temp of 30 will take along time. You are not saving any money on your electric bill from setting the thermostat back when it's that cold outside. Its going to cost you less if you set your thermostat at a temp and never touch it. The heat pump is set up for a more constant temp. But if you set it at 66 and keep it. It should be 66 in your house and you will save you money. Average supply temp of your heat pump will be around 98 and it should heat your house fine if you don't play with the thermostat a lot.
    hvac1000's Avatar
    hvac1000 Posts: 14,540, Reputation: 435
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    #5

    Jan 10, 2008, 07:59 PM
    The AC will not stop cooling but you will have a recovery problem if you play with the thermostat. Up stairs are always hotter than down. Cold air will also fall down to the next level. Set the upstairs at a comfortable temp in the summer and let it be. Now you can play with the settings but remember the AC is more for moisture removal than cold air. The longer a AC runs the better moisture removal it will have.
    letmetellu's Avatar
    letmetellu Posts: 3,151, Reputation: 317
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    #6

    Jan 10, 2008, 08:55 PM
    Heat pumps should have an external thermostat that turns the heat pump off when the outside temp gets to 35 or 40 degrees and switches on the axulary heat source.
    Another thing about heat pumps it that the air coming out of your registers will be around 95 degrees but the air coming out of the registers when using the axulary heat source will be around 110 to 125 degrees.
    ilsils's Avatar
    ilsils Posts: 32, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Jan 11, 2008, 06:59 AM
    Thanks to hvac1000, T-Top and letmetellu for enlightening me about heat pump operations. But doesn't that go against good 'energy conservation' procedures? For the past 10 years, to 'conserve energy,' I've been using a programmable thermostats on my furnace to regulate the temperature 4 times daily: set back the temperature at night to 60F, up to 66F before going to work, down to 62 during the day, then up to 66 for an hour or two before bedtime. Ditto with summer AC procedures. Is there a compromise between HP efficiency and 'green thinking?' ILS^2
    hvac1000's Avatar
    hvac1000 Posts: 14,540, Reputation: 435
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    #8

    Jan 11, 2008, 12:03 PM
    (((Is there a compromise between HP efficiency and 'green thinking?' ILS^2)))

    Yes Turn off the unit and freeze.
    Missouri Bound's Avatar
    Missouri Bound Posts: 1,532, Reputation: 94
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    #9

    Jan 11, 2008, 07:38 PM
    I have a heat pump myself and yes it does take a while longer to raise the temperature after set back. But it usually averages no more than 5 degrees a minute. I wonder if your house is in need of more insulation, better windows, etc. Heat pumps certainly don't put out the heat of gas units, but then again if the house is adequately sealed and insulated the heat pump should take care of your heating needs. And as far as set back, this is the first year I have used a set back thermostat... mostly for the reason I prefer it to be cooler at night, when I sleep. I doubt I will use it for the cooling season. Another thing to consider is that some thermostats will call for aux heat if there isn't a heat rise in a certain period. Does your thermostat provide that feature? Does your furnace have aux heat (2nd stage)? Any heat pump installed in areas that can get below freezing have to have that feature, for the simple fact that during defrost cycle the aux heat is needed to prevent the house from being cooled. Hope I have helped in some way.
    Missouri Bound's Avatar
    Missouri Bound Posts: 1,532, Reputation: 94
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    #10

    Jan 11, 2008, 07:40 PM
    I need to correct my last post... in error I said 5 degrees a minute... it should have said 5 minutes for one degree. I am very sorry.
    Eric D's Avatar
    Eric D Posts: 98, Reputation: 4
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    #11

    Jan 11, 2008, 09:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ilsils
    Thanks to hvac1000, T-Top and letmetellu for enlightening me about heat pump operations. But doesn't that go against good 'energy conservation' procedures? For the past 10 years, to 'conserve energy,' I've been using a programmable thermostats on my furnace to regulate the temperature 4 times daily: set back the temperature at night to 60F, up to 66F before going to work, down to 62 during the day, then up to 66 for an hour or two before bedtime. Ditto with summer AC procedures. Is there a compromise between HP efficiency and 'green thinking?' ILS^2
    What size is the heat pump? If sized correctly you are being green just by the fact your are using the heat pump, don't worry about setback. Set the temp and leave it. If the unit was sized correctly long run cycles gets you the best efficiency compared to an oversized unit that runs for short cycles.

    Eric D
    ilsils's Avatar
    ilsils Posts: 32, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Jan 12, 2008, 04:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Bound
    I have a heat pump myself and yes it does take a while longer to raise the temperature after set back. But it usually averages no more than 5 degrees a minute [actually, 5 minutes for one degree]. I wonder if your house is in need of more insulation, better windows, etc. Heat pumps certainly don't put out the heat of gas units, but then again if the house is adequately sealed and insulated the heat pump should take care of your heating needs. And as far as set back, this is the first year I have used a set back thermostat....mostly for the reason I prefer it to be cooler at night, when I sleep. I doubt I will use it for the cooling season. Another thing to consider is that some thermostats will call for aux heat if there isn't a heat rise in a certain period of time. Does your thermostat provide that feature? Does your furnace have aux heat (2nd stage)? Any heat pump installed in areas that can get below freezing have to have that feature, for the simple fact that during defrost cycle the aux heat is needed to prevent the house from being cooled. Hope I have helped in some way.
    Missouri Bound, Thanks for your observations. As a new heat pump (HP) owner, I need all the insights I can get.
    1. Insulation and windows are sufficient (relatively new)
    2. Yes, we set it back to 62 at night because it's a more comfortable sleeping temperature.
    3. "Does your furnace have aux heat (2nd stage)?" If you mean my HP, yes, there's a 10kW aux heater built in, but I don't have control over it.
    4. "Any heat pump installed in areas that can get below freezing have to have that feature, for the simple fact that during defrost cycle the aux heat is needed to prevent the house from being cooled." My HP is installed in a small, unheated space under a sloping roof. Below is a 1st floor bedroom and behind it, a 2nd floor bathroom. But aren't all HPs (the air handler, not the exchanger) in unheated areas? However, it only drops below freezing inside the beltway (Alexandria VA) where I live maybe one or two weeks a year.
    Frdbrkl's Avatar
    Frdbrkl Posts: 94, Reputation: 7
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    #13

    Jan 12, 2008, 05:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ilsils
    ....My HP is installed in a small, unheated space under a sloping roof. Below is a 1st floor bedroom and behind it, a 2nd floor bathroom. But aren't all HPs (the air handler, not the exchanger) in unheated areas?
    A clue. It's in an unheated space. Have you checked the air handler and return ductwork and make sure it's sealed up air tight? I ran a call last month with the same symptoms, and found the filter door off the air handler which was under the house. The filter door being off, the cold air under the house was being sucked into the air handler-effectively killing the heat (first bad cold spell this year)! If it's flex duct, make sure it's all intact and none of the returns have slipped off their boots. If it's metal, make sure all joints are tight and sealed with foil tape-this will also keep critters out of your ductwork.
    ilsils's Avatar
    ilsils Posts: 32, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Jan 12, 2008, 06:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Frdbrkl
    A clue. It's in an unheated space. Have you checked the air handler and return ductwork and make sure it's sealed up air tight? I ran a call last month with the same symptoms, and found the filter door off of the air handler which was under the house. The filter door being off, the cold air under the house was being sucked into the air handler-effectively killing the heat (first bad cold spell this year)! If it's flex duct, make sure it's all intact and none of the returns have slipped off their boots. If it's metal, make sure all joints are tight and sealed with foil tape-this will also keep critters out of your ductwork.
    The unit is brand new and just installed last month. Everything is very well sealed, including the door. ILS^2
    Missouri Bound's Avatar
    Missouri Bound Posts: 1,532, Reputation: 94
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    #15

    Jan 12, 2008, 08:06 PM
    Why wouldn't you have control over the second stage? Your thermostat should provide that with switching. The second stage is the strip heater that should energize if the HP is not keeping up. What type of T-stat do you have... make, model #?
    ilsils's Avatar
    ilsils Posts: 32, Reputation: 1
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    #16

    Jan 13, 2008, 12:23 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Bound
    Why wouldn't you have control over the second stage? Your thermostat should provide that with switching. The second stage is the strip heater that should energize if the HP is not keeping up. What type of T-stat do you have......make, model #?
    You're right. My Honeywell thermostat has a switch position labeled "Em. heat" It probably activates the 10kW aux heater. ILS^2
    T-Top's Avatar
    T-Top Posts: 1,871, Reputation: 100
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    #17

    Jan 13, 2008, 08:00 PM
    To compare the supply temp of gas heat to heatpump is like comparing apple and oranges. Yes your gas heat has a higher supply temp, But the heatpump has more of a constant temp and it will heat your house and save you money if you do not play with the thermostat.
    Frdbrkl's Avatar
    Frdbrkl Posts: 94, Reputation: 7
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    #18

    Jan 14, 2008, 03:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ilsils
    The unit is brand new and just installed last month. Everything is very well sealed, including the door. ILS^2
    I would without hesitation contact the installing contractor and explain my concerns. There should be NO reason a brand new system fresh out of the box can't keep up with the heat loss of an average home if it's properly sized.
    ilsils's Avatar
    ilsils Posts: 32, Reputation: 1
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    #19

    Jan 15, 2008, 12:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Frdbrkl
    I would without hesitation contact the installing contractor and explain my concerns. There should be NO reason a brand new system fresh out of the box can't keep up with the heat loss of an average home if it's properly sized.
    I notice that you, like me, live in the DC area (I live in Alexandria). This morning, with the local temperature 36F, I tried to raise the temp from 64 to 66 (by upping the thermostat from 64F to 70F). After 1/2 hour, the temp remained at 64 (Note: I did the same downstair with the gas heater, and the temp climbed from 66 to 70 within 5 minutes or so.) The upstairs is an addition put in 18 years ago, with a well-insulated attic and no obvious leaks/drafts in the upstairs. My brand-new unit is a carrier 25HBR (I don't know the size off hand) 13 SEER. Should I call back the installer? Or is it possibly an outside temperature thing? ILS^2
    PS. I could never find a carrier model 25HBR (that's what it says on my installation manual) on the carrier website. They only have 25HBR3 listed. Could mine be 3 generations old?
    hvac1000's Avatar
    hvac1000 Posts: 14,540, Reputation: 435
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    #20

    Jan 15, 2008, 01:17 PM
    You need the exact number off the unit. Books are made for many different numbers all the time. It has been mentioned before that you should call back the people who installed your unit if you have concerns about its operation.

    I would call them in your case because you will not be satisfied until you do.

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