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    hiperf402's Avatar
    hiperf402 Posts: 106, Reputation: -1
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    #1

    Mar 18, 2007, 08:59 PM
    Sewer drain pipe
    I read online that pvc pipe can be used for sewer drain but not glued together with conventional pvc cement. Instead of glue, to use some kind of hub with an o-ring seal in it. Am I just off my rocker or what? If they do need to be glued, how can I created a grade on a 90 degree elbow from the wall to floor? Will the pipe have enough give to be able to grade it?
    nmwirez's Avatar
    nmwirez Posts: 453, Reputation: 20
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    #2

    Mar 18, 2007, 11:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by hiperf402
    I read online that pvc pipe can be used for sewer drain but not glued together with conventional pvc cement. Instead of glue, to use some kind of hub with an o-ring seal in it. Am I just off my rocker or what? If they do need to be glued, how can I created a grade on a 90 degree elbow from the wall to floor? Will the pipe hav enough give to be able to grade it?
    Hi 402,
    I don't know what you are reading, but why aren't you using ABS, dwv? Are you making a transition connection from cast iron no hub or derm fittings? If that is the case then you can use stainless clamped rubber sleeves that will make the transition real easy.
    You mention "grade" which in construction terms means direct buried sewer pipe to the main sewer connection. If that is what you mean, then the house sewer pipe will be smaller than the city 6" PVC pipes that have o'ring seals in them that do not get cemented.

    So is any of the above help? Nm
    hiperf402's Avatar
    hiperf402 Posts: 106, Reputation: -1
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    #3

    Mar 19, 2007, 07:24 AM
    Yes, thank you. I was looking at the dwv pipe, it is direct buried and I think is 4". I am replacing the sewer main in my house because when I disturbed it from busting the concrete, it started to leak. So I'm replacing from the vertical on wall to footer of house.Thanks for your reply.
    nmwirez's Avatar
    nmwirez Posts: 453, Reputation: 20
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    #4

    Mar 19, 2007, 08:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by hiperf402
    Yes, thank you. I was looking at the dwv pipe, it is direct buried and I think is 4". I am replacing the sewer main in my house because when I disturbed it from busting the concrete, it started to leak. So I'm replacing from the vertical on wall to footer of house.Thanks for your reply.
    Your ABS (black) is 3 or 4" depending on the house drain capacity needs. The ABS will be using a black ABS solvent for sleeve repairs to the damaged section. Nm
    labman's Avatar
    labman Posts: 10,580, Reputation: 551
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    #5

    Mar 19, 2007, 09:48 AM
    I am asking to have this moved to plumbing. I wouldn't follow any of the above until you see some more answers.
    nmwirez's Avatar
    nmwirez Posts: 453, Reputation: 20
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    #6

    Mar 19, 2007, 05:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by labman
    I am asking to have this moved to plumbing. I wouldn't follow any of the above until you see some more answers.
    Hey Labman,

    I thought we parted paths on the electrical forum. Residential construction is my expertise of over 40 years. I have worked in each trade professionally and can tell you the difference from a Ufer ground and a split bus panel. Can you? It is confusing for you to pass judgement and give DIY conjective answers that cause problems. I do not tell you how to shampoo your dog and you should have the same respect for my construction expertise and experience. Nm
    labman's Avatar
    labman Posts: 10,580, Reputation: 551
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    #7

    Mar 19, 2007, 07:13 PM
    Just as tkrussel frequently posted electrical answers that disagreed with yours, so I expect one of the plumbers to drop by explaining that if the OP has the old black ABS, he may have to patch it with white PVC, and there is special cement allowing it. If the broken drain is PVC, then no problem. Drain elbows are more than 90 degrees allowing to go from a vertical to the proper slope of a horizontal run.
    nmwirez's Avatar
    nmwirez Posts: 453, Reputation: 20
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    #8

    Mar 19, 2007, 07:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by labman
    Just as tkrussel frequently posted electrical answers that disagreed with yours, so I expect one of the plumbers to drop by explaining that if the OP has the old black ABS, he may have to patch it with white PVC, and there is special cement allowing it. If the broken drain is PVC, then no problem. Drain elbows are more than 90 degrees allowing to go from a vertical to the proper slope of a horizontal run.
    Labman,

    Without hurting your feelings, ABS DWV is still state of the art for plumbing. Anyone who suggests using pvc indicates not knowing how to plumb professionally. Pvc is used more often for plumbing fixture parts such as undersink drains, or irrigation and sprinkler systems. This is strictly for residential I am referring to, so if you remember using pvc in your factory days, well that does not apply for professional residential plumbing. BTW, the 6"sewer line I referred to earlier is a polystyrene that is referred to as pvc occasionally. Nm
    hiperf402's Avatar
    hiperf402 Posts: 106, Reputation: -1
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    #9

    Apr 1, 2007, 07:34 PM
    Hey guys, Holy ! What is all the bickering about. These forums are for second hand info. Nmwirez gave me the correct info. I used white schedule 40 dwv pipe to go from my thrtee inch wall drain (iron) which I cut to 4 inch (iron) direct buried. I used rubber connectors to iron pipe and leakchecked and concreted around after confirming no leaks. I figured out the grade by cleaning off the old pipe and referencing the bubble on the level. I used unburied system for week and had no problems. Doublechecked about closet flange on center from wall from friend who is a plumber. It's all good. If someone comes on here and follows someone's advice to the tee then shame on them.There is no need for people to be sarcastic towards the other. Thanks for the help though. I do appreciate it. Now on to framing.
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #10

    Apr 1, 2007, 08:09 PM
    ... so I expect one of the plumbers to drop by explaining that if the OP has the old black ABS, he may have to patch it with white PVC, and there is special cement allowing it.
    While there are cements made specifically for transitioning ABS to PVC, none of them have specific approval for their use in any of the commonly used Plumbing Codes.

    One acceptable transition from ABS to PVC is the use of a shielded coupling, another is to use threaded male and female fittings.

    Drain elbows are more than 90 degrees allowing to go from a vertical to the proper slope of a horizontal run.
    Actually, this is a common misconception, or rather a holdover from the days when cast Durham fittings were tapped at 91-1/2 degrees -- Hold one hub of a plastic DWV 90 degree elbow down tightly on a known level surface and then place a torpedo level on the other hub and the torpedo level will read plumb.
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #11

    Apr 1, 2007, 08:21 PM
    ABS DWV is still state of the art for plumbing.
    Well, it is and it isn't.

    ABS is more susceptible to UV, damage in freezing weather due to moisture in the cellular core, sharding and delamination from the inside out due to age and heat and bowing when exposed to direct sunlight.

    Anyone who suggests using pvc indicates not knowing how to plumb professionally.
    Ahem.

    I've been using PVC DWV almost exclusively for the better part of fifteen years and can attest to it's superiority over ABS.

    It is a much denser material, not nearly as susceptible to the damaging effects listed above and a much hotter chemical weld than ABS, which makes the glued joints much stronger.
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #12

    Apr 1, 2007, 08:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by hiperf402
    I read online that pvc pipe can be used for sewer drain but not glued together with conventional pvc cement. Instead of glue, to use some kind of hub with an o-ring seal in it. Am I just off my rocker or what? If they do need to be glued, how can I created a grade on a 90 degree elbow from the wall to floor? Will the pipe hav enough give to be able to grade it?
    Actually, the gasketed piping you are talking about is most commonly used for sewer piping buried outside of the house.

    And yes, you can bend the piping inside of the hub enough to make your grade.

    As for whether you actually need to use gasketed piping in your area, check with your local Plumbing inspector -- We are still allowed to use tightline piping and fittings (glued schedule 40 PVC DWV) for side sewers here in Seattle, but if you drive ten miles across the bridge into Bellevue, they are going to require gasketed pipe and fittings.

    Go figger.
    nmwirez's Avatar
    nmwirez Posts: 453, Reputation: 20
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    #13

    Apr 1, 2007, 10:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by iamgrowler
    Well, it is and it isn't.

    ABS is more susceptible to UV, damage in freezing weather due to moisture in the cellular core, sharding and delamination from the inside out due to age and heat and bowing when exposed to direct sunlight.
    HI iamgrowler, I like the "Well, it is" part up to a certain degree and then the "isn't" part as gospel truth. Cost was a major issue in the 70's when I was a rural grunt. I am a little obsolete now but use reasons for remod in this case.

    I agree with you totally the superiority of PVC in sunlight. I am not out of touch with UV degradation of ABS under exposed conditions. The superiority in ABS has declined with manufacturing quality of compounds used when I was in the business. Still for a home owner doing remods on older homes, I state the ABS is still the most used interior dwv to match the original installation.


    Ahem.
    Thanks for your kind response. My apologies on the professional remark. I let that one out too soon as I am still active in the construction trades and see PVC more than not in the Seattle area. Go to California and ABS is still the competitive low bid means in tract construction. (Except for hot tubs)

    I've been using PVC DWV almost exclusively for the better part of fifteen years and can attest to it's superiority over ABS.

    It is a much denser material, not nearly as susceptible to the damaging effects listed above and a much hotter chemical weld than ABS, which makes the glued joints much stronger.
    No contest there. Thanks again for your accurate response. Pax... nm

    Ps. If you go 10 miles south to Tukwila the side piping is gasketed, well at least it was in 1997. Street mains in 2006. :) nm
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
    Eternal Plumber
     
    #14

    Apr 2, 2007, 05:58 AM
    Let's clear this up right now. All due respect to you nmwirez while you may be topdog, (as you claim) in construction I would never let you play on one of my plumbing crews.
    You say," ABS DWV is still state of the art for plumbing."
    First off we went from ABS to PVC back in the 70's. The ABS walls were not as strong as PVC and the sink and lav arms tended to droop and sag as the hot Florida sun got to them, so don't be telling me that ABS is the "state of the art of plumbing".
    You then went on to proclaim, "Anyone who suggests using pvc indicates not knowing how to plumb professionally."
    And you were licensed to plumb in what state?

    Here's another classic, " Pvc is used more often for plumbing fixture parts such as undersink drains, or irrigation and sprinkler systems."
    What say?? You plumb a home with ABS and then use PVC to stubout and run the traps? Our code forbids commingling PVC and ABS pipes.

    I am still attempting to figure this one out. "This is strictly for residential I am referring to, so if you remember using pvc in your factory days, well that does not apply for professional residential plumbing."
    HUH??

    " BTW, the 6"sewer line I referred to earlier is a polystyrene that is referred to as pvc occasionally. Nm"
    And a BTW to you, Polystyrene is not PVC. Polyvinyl Chloride is PVC.

    Like I said, you can't play on any of my plumbing crews.
    Have a great day, Tom
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #15

    Apr 2, 2007, 08:38 AM
    [QUOTE=nmwirez] No contest there. Thanks again for your accurate response. Pax... nm

    Don't get me wrong, I still use ABS from time to time, usually on remodels where I will be tying in to existing ABS drains or if I am out in the boonies and relying on local hardware stores for incidental piping and materials.

    To date, none of the Big Box chain stores or the few remaining Mom and Pop hardware stores in the area carry PVC DWV piping and fittings.

    Here's a classic example from just this past week where I changed a single Lav rough-in to a double Lav rough-in:
    Attached Images
     
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
    Eternal Plumber
     
    #16

    Apr 2, 2007, 10:02 AM
    Growler,
    Ya do good work my man! Your work is neat, professional, and code conforming.
    Back when I was bossing jobs I would have been proud to put you out in the field on one of my companies subdivisions as crew chief/foreman and never have a worry about the caliber of the workmanship. Your work shows the training and experience that you process. Just a stray thought on my part. Cheers, Tom
    nmwirez's Avatar
    nmwirez Posts: 453, Reputation: 20
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    #17

    Apr 2, 2007, 11:27 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1
    Let's clear this up right now. All due respect to you nmwirez while you may be topdog, (as you claim) in construction I would never let you play on one of my plumbing crews.
    You say," ABS DWV is still state of the art for plumbing."
    First off we went from ABS to PVC back in the 70's. The ABS walls were not as strong as PVC and the sink and lav arms tended to droop and sag as the hot Florida sun got to them, so don't be telling me that ABS is the "state of the art of plumbing".
    Thanks, that may be in Florida where half the state is underwater and plagued by many unwanted environmental conditions that do not exist elsewhere. As far as mixing ABS and PVC, I did not suggest or subscribe to that. Just want to make sure this is understood. As far as the strength of ABS there are two types if you ever get as chance to plumb in ABS. An easy way to tell without looking at the fine ASTM print, the open cell D2282 is mat and the dense core D 1527 is a gloss surface.
    You then went on to proclaim, "Anyone who suggests using pvc indicates not knowing how to plumb professionally." I recanted that and predicated the current related post using older plumbed housing. Come to the west and see how many pvc waste vents are sticking through the roof. Practically zero.

    And you were licensed to plumb in what state?
    I did not have a plumbing license, but a B1 in California. Prior to that not only did I do design and construct homes, in earlier days have worked for professional plumbing and electrical shops. I am retired and going on mid 70's and still am a wireman on residential, so I know what the production guys are still using on the West Coast. Yes I am well experienced in resi construction and have earned it by working in all trades.
    I again apologize for being outspoken on plumbing because it wasn't predicated by location, which does injustice to contractors elsewhere such as yourself. I have advised on plans for developement in Clearwater, so I do know some of the basic stringent requirements in Florida.
    How did I do all the stuff mentioned. One day at a time, and many years of hard work.

    " BTW, the 6"sewer line I referred to earlier is a polystyrene that is referred to as pvc occasionally. nm"
    And a BTW to you, Polystyrene is not PVC. You bet. I said it is "referred to" (mistakenly in general by the uninformed.) Polyvinyl Chloride is PVC.

    Like I said, you can't play on any of my plumbing crews.
    Have a great day, Tom
    Tom, I am through with all the playing and would use old quality methods that would drive you crazy. :D Thanks for your concern, and have a good week. nm
    nmwirez's Avatar
    nmwirez Posts: 453, Reputation: 20
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    #18

    Apr 2, 2007, 11:40 AM
    [QUOTE=iamgrowler]
    Quote Originally Posted by nmwirez
    No contest there. Thanks again for your accurate response. Pax... nm

    Don't get me wrong, I still use ABS from time to time, usually on remodels where I will be tying in to existing ABS drains or if I am out in the boonies and relying on local hardware stores for incidental piping and materials.

    To date, none of the Big Box chain stores or the few remaining Mom and Pop hardware stores in the area carry PVC DWV piping and fittings.

    Here's a classic example from just this past week where I changed a single Lav rough-in to a double Lav rough-in:

    Growler, Great work, I like your wrot supply. Do you finish with ABS after the p trap or go PVC to the tailpiece? Nm
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #19

    Apr 2, 2007, 02:59 PM
    Do you finish with ABS after the p trap or go PVC to the tailpiece?
    The cabinet will be open fronted in this case, so I'll be using chromed p-traps, tailpieces, stops, supplies and escutcheons.

    If it's a closed front vanity, I'll usually just use a tubular plastic PVC trap and stainless braided supplies.
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #20

    Apr 2, 2007, 03:02 PM
    Growler, Ya do good work my man!
    Thanks, I've been getting a bit rusty sitting on my butt lately, so I thought I'd go out and do some of the smaller jobs myself.

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