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    EarlyTrekker's Avatar
    EarlyTrekker Posts: 14, Reputation: 0
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    #1

    Jul 7, 2012, 09:43 AM
    Parallel *switching* of well pressure tanks?
    The "problem":

    Power outages and the remaining amount of water in a simple pressure tank system. Could be nearly full, or on its last drop. Simply paralleling multiple pressure tanks will not "assure" a "known" remaining capacity on hand.

    Yes a reserve float switch tank system, generator, or "bottle" water on hand are all reasonable options too. Each with their own different set of problems and limitations.

    Except for water stagnation concerns (months / YEARS, unfounded?) either a "dedicated" reserve pressure tank with a back flow valve and a manual ball valve back flow bypass, or 2 tanks in series, isolated with a solenoid valve (on with pump on only) and pressure switched from the 2nd tank appears to also work.

    For the 2nd scenairo above is there some plumbing fitting trickery to force a good percentage of the inflow to the primary tank as it flows down the chain to the second tank? (would eliminate stagnation concerns). Such a system also runs the risk of continuous pump operation should he solenoid valve fail to open. Is there some additional fail safe that can be added for this possibility?

    A better solution, solenoid switching valve(s) allowing 2 tanks to operate in parallel, with each one alternately drained and refilled according to water usage demand.

    There are a variety of 3 way zone valves available and the basic switching relay to control such. But I'm having difficulty with valve specifications. Some clearly indicate that corrosion _will_ be a problem with high dissolved O2 i.e. drinking water.

    It seemed to be that there should already be an established path for such a system. I've just not been able to find it.


    Any insights?
    EarlyTrekker's Avatar
    EarlyTrekker Posts: 14, Reputation: 0
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    #2

    Jul 9, 2012, 10:02 PM
    For anyone stumbling across this thread the discussion ended-up here:

    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbing/increasing-water-available-well-sytem-during-power-outage-680146.html

    The "answer" in a word:

    Don't
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #3

    Jul 10, 2012, 10:24 AM
    Let's take a look at what's been offered. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbi...ge-680146.html
    And you don't seem to be moved by any of them. What's the story here? So many power outages in your area that you have to prepare for it in advance? Or are you simply a real careful guy? Cheers, Tom
    EarlyTrekker's Avatar
    EarlyTrekker Posts: 14, Reputation: 0
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    #4

    Jul 10, 2012, 05:58 PM
    Ok,

    You also have a curious streak. :)

    I'll do you the courtesy of an answer. Especially since I apparently caused you some grief (as in Good grief! With :rolls eyes: ) :p

    I live in a rural area. A few years back 12 outages in 1 year. Most only a couple of hours so there wasn't really an issue. Last year a 3 DAY outage. Small potatoes vs. a major disaster area i.e hurricane or winter storm but we lost all our refrigerated items and were performing the drain the HW tank for flushing chore. This year near-by areas have suffered similar duration outages (3+ day). It was simply my "luck" of not being located in the wrong place, this time.

    Finding a generator and properly equipping it _at_ the time needed - almost impossible. Managed to come up with a Honda eu2000i on day 3. Not enough amps to "start" the microwave. :( Want a _really_ HIGH maintenance item that is prone not to perform on demand if not regularly well maintained? Buy a generator. Long stand-by times readily "gum-up" a carbutrator.

    Ok so I was planning for the future even then. 1 month later a propane conversion + Honda's ability to gang 2 generators and I now have enough standby power for the microwave OR refrigerator + TV and a few lights. Propane / CNG / LPG (where available) won't gum up on stand-by and have an indefinite shelf life vs. gasoline. Ideally, I could "comfortably" endure anything short of a direct hit with a 6000 watt generator + a 500 gallon propane tank, $10K+. Wish I could, but its never going to fit in my budget. And I don't really mind indoor "camping" so even if I had the money, I'd spend it elsewhere. A lack of potable water is a BIG problem. And I'd have a well full that would be essentially unreachable - a paradox wanting for an answer.

    Soooo (remember you asked :p ) just how much water loss endurance can I reasonably plan for? Seemed that since a bladder tank had on demand performance with no batteries required it would fit the bill. Expensive? Yes. Comfort & convienence usually is. Remember a BIG part of expense / inconvienence is also in the maintenance and operation of a system. From what I understand a pressure tank ranks _very_ low in that regard.

    But I had initially left out water quality issues / problems related to stored water stagnation, and there is a "lake full" of water within 1 mile of me. Real endurance will hinge on me being able to make lake water potable with relative comfort & convenience. Hence my newfound solution, gravity powered ceramic / carbon filtration. I'd pay more for more convenience, but do have limits and the system _must_ relatively low maintenance.

    Sequentially switching 2 bladder tanks still fits my budget, but pushes the maintenance envelope quite hard. Hydronic heating systems use suitable 3 way valves and one can be had for around $100. Add a switching relay to alternately flop the valve and you can alternate tank usage. But when the valve / relay fails undetected add the real possibility of ending up with non potable water in the dead tank for all the expense and effort. I began looking for solutions elsewhere.

    So that's the rest of the story. :) But unless you guys have been holding out on the information for the "magic" perfect solution control valve, I've found my answer.

    I'm not a survivalist and I'm really not interested in debating any of those philosophical issues.

    My endurance philosophy in a one liner? When life gives you lemons, make lemonade! (and it helps to have some sugar stored for the possibility).


    Sincerely,

    John K. Bullock
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #5

    Jul 10, 2012, 06:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ;
    newfound solution, gravity powered ceramic / carbon filtration
    ET, here's my question. Why do all of that to simply have water to wash dishes with or flush a commode? Why not simply store purchased drinking water? You can buy two gallon containers for a couple of bucks. Buy ten of them. They'll store, I would think, for years. Then you can use all the lake water you want to do other things.

    I'll give you this. You have done a great job of looking at your options. I just wonder if you are making the problem more complicated than it is. Still, whatever you do, let us know. It's been an interesting thread and I, for one, would like to see how it plays out.

    Best wishes.
    hkstroud's Avatar
    hkstroud Posts: 11,929, Reputation: 899
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    #6

    Jul 10, 2012, 07:52 PM
    But unless you guys have been holding out on the information for the "magic" perfect solution control valve,
    Two pressure tanks whether in line or in parallel, will always have equal pressure and will store proportionately the same amount of water. That is to say that the will act a single larger tank. Water from a pump will flow in proportionately and will flow out proportionately. So the magic valve is no valve at all.

    It should be noted that a pressure tanks purpose is to extend the life of the pump. It does that by storing a small amount of water and therefore reducing the cycling on and off the pump. It is not a storage tank. To try to use a pressure tank as a storage is not economically practical. To do that you need to get up in the 2000 gallon range. One of those will run you about $20,000.

    The Honda 2000i is a campers generator. It is also an inverter generator. It puts out an ac voltage but that voltage is square wave voltage and current not a sine wave voltage. Great for some things but expect about a 20% loss in power when used to power a motor.

    A regular 4000 watt no name generater should easily power a well pump unless you have a 5 hp pump in a 300 foot well, pumping 50 gallons a minute. With a 5 gallon gas tank and an idle control it should run a coupled days with out refueling. Longer if you manually started and stopped it, using it only when need to power the pump.

    Yes, gasoline will gum up a carburetor if allow to sit too long. Of course there is such a thing as gas stabilizers. Draining the fuel before storing is also an option. Most no name generators use Briggs and Stratton engines so engine quality should not be a question. I have a 4000 watt 20 year old Generac that starts on the second pull. Price for a comparable replacement would be in the $500 range.

    While I live in suburbia I am quite familiar with rural life Should I relocate to a rural environment I would consider a 20 or 30k standby generater a necessity. Prevent the lost of a freezer full of food a couple of times and it has paid for itself.

    No two ways about it. If you are going to get water out of the ground you need power, human power, animal power or electric power.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #7

    Jul 10, 2012, 07:56 PM
    HK's advice is really sound.

    As far as gas gumming up a carb, simply crank it up three or four times a year. Good to do anyway.
    EarlyTrekker's Avatar
    EarlyTrekker Posts: 14, Reputation: 0
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    #8

    Jul 10, 2012, 08:13 PM
    jlisenbe...

    My foundational premise from which all others follow: Water is absolutely essential for life. So it commands a disproportionate cost in endurance situations.

    I'm still toying with a bigger tank idea if for nothing else but lower cycling of the pump and a statistical increase in the chances of more water on hand. Still, its hard to manage a resource if you don't know how much you may have of it.

    I do store 10-15 gallons and rotate them as my refrigerated drinking water (no stagnation there ;) ) So for one there's 2 weeks +-. Ok. But I've got a well full. How much for an additional % of capacity? That was my second premise. You guys help clairify the answer within my contraints of comfort vs. convienience limited by cost.

    I've spent several hours reviewing Google water stagnation searches. Sometimes you can "get away with" long term potable storage, but your dealing with a thriving microbiological world. Unforseeable and unknown cause oopses routienly happen. You'll hear about the boil order for some municipality, I doubt you'd ever hear about a individual's incident. Academically it seems to be a "problem" of some interest. There are numerous studies in real world applications to review on the net.

    Somewhat oversimply stated either stored potable water must be pre treated in approprate containers then discarded after X time or stagnation _must_ be avoided. The "experts" disagree on the _quantity_ of the time factor, but all the agree stagnation time is a factor that cannot be safely _ignored_. One year dosen't appear routinely contradicted but more than two does (entirely a subjective quantification on my part based on my limited reading).

    Even in chlorinated stagnated storage systems where the chlorine levels _measured_ at effective levels, I've read two studies that detected pathenogenic bacteria at unhealty levels. Statistics of risk are hard to come by since any such study is costly and complex and hundereds would have to be done to make such an assessment. Allow _any_ slop and the results are meaningless. So as in all things YMMV (you either believe them at face value based on the institutions credibility, or not).

    I can't think of a less desirable situation than to be dependent on your chosen emergency water supply and then get sick from it. The "comfort" factor drops to ZERO for such a possibility so the avoidance factor must be increased proportionally. Mathematically this equates to infinity to balance the equation, but since no such number exists it simply means its not a viable solution in my way of thinking.

    Sill the paradox persists, a well full of water and how to access it cheaply enough to justify the investment for a hopefully very infrequent event. I just need the right type of valve... :p

    HTH!

    John K. Bullock

    HK,

    Yup the cost factor IS VERY high. The quantities of water stored quite small. The comfort factor... could be within budget. So the thinking goes.

    You may be missing some of Honda's newer generator specs. If you in the market its time to compairson shop again. ;) In my case I'd need 27A to start my pump as measured at the panel. And then you have to feed such a beast. And yup, quarterly start-ups, annual maintenance. Except for a BIG bucks system, in my equation the convienence factor has been lost.

    I can endure stand alone a few days. A few weeks with additional outside resources brought in. IMO beyond that it becomes more of a survival situation and I'd be knocking on my brother's front door. I'm still owed for a _year_ of weekends I spent helping him with his basement remodel, you could live down there now. ;)

    Not trying to be evasive. All of the positive suggestions I've been given here are are sound. Its clear to me I was looking for something that isn't there to be had (in the way I wanted it). But maybe still invented... there's a market for one (1) if I can get it cheaply enough. :p


    John K. Bullock
    hkstroud's Avatar
    hkstroud Posts: 11,929, Reputation: 899
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    #9

    Jul 10, 2012, 10:46 PM
    I do not wish to be abrasive but are you trying to make reasonable preparation for temporary power outages which one certainly can expect. Or is it an academic exercise in disaster preparedness for the nuclear winter.

    Exactly what is you objective? Just how much water do you think you should have available at all times.

    The 27 amps you are reading on you pump start up is exactly that, starting amps. Has to be available only for a few seconds until motor gets started. The starting amps of an electrical motor varies wildly. You haven't stated the size of you pump but that sounds like a 1 or 1 1/2 hp pump. Running amps is probably 7 or 8 amps 240 volts. Well within the capabilities of a 4K or even 3K generator.
    At the risk of being redundant I'll repeat, expect about a 20% loss in power when feeding an electric motor with an inverter type generator.

    I agree with John (jlinsenbe), unless you are preparing for the nuclear winter you are over thinking this.

    Now if your objective is to have a small quantity of water to get you over a temporary power outage, that can be done. Not only can it be done but it can be done with a passive system.

    Let's say you want to have 100 gallons of water available. Get a 100 gallon galvanized pressure tank and a 50 or 80 gallon air compressor. Pipe out of you pressure tank into the center of the galvanized tank and out of the bottom of the galvanized tank to the house. In th top port of the galvanized tank put in a short nipple, and a tee. In one side of the tee put in a pressure release valve. In the other side of the tee put in a bushing and a schrader valve. To fill the galvanized tank, open the pressure release valve and open the input valve.

    While the recommended procedure of an air compressor is to release the tank pressure when not in use, I never do. Keep the tank of you compressor pressurized at all times.

    When power goes out, and you have use all the available water, close the input valve to your galvanized tank. Pressurize the galvanized tank with the air stored in the compressor tank. As you use the water keep pressurizing the tank.

    That will insure that you have 100 gallon of water plus what ever happens to be in the pressure tank at any given time.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #10

    Jul 11, 2012, 08:08 AM
    What the hell! How long is this thread going to run? Let me end it right now. Early times, You came in here complaining about the amount of time it took us to respond to your oust, As a volunteer it still ruffles my feathers. However, I'm going to finish off this thread by giving you even more then you asked for. You asked for a cheap way to store water in case of a power outage, I'll go better then that and give you a cheap UNLIMITED source of water without any power usage.
    Purchase a pitcher pump and tee off the suction line. Before the check valve to a shut off valve and then to the hand operated pitcher pump. Now, when you lose power simply open the shut off valve and pump as much water as you wish. No power usage. Cheap parts and labor installation. Isn't this exactly what you wanted? Can we close now? Tom
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #11

    Jul 11, 2012, 03:15 PM
    BUMP! I don't want to bury this thread just yet,
    EarlyTrekker's Avatar
    EarlyTrekker Posts: 14, Reputation: 0
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    #12

    Jul 11, 2012, 03:59 PM
    speedball1

    Well I though I ended it with my "Bye Now" in the other thread but I keep getting replies from you guys. %)

    How much _more_ discourteous are you wanting me to be by not answering?

    What you guys are still missing about me (and IMO such is a limitation of a message board) is that while I can converse accurately about basic plumbing I'm no master of it. I am a master in another trade and deal daily with customers who either want or think they are masters too. I know well the challenge of conversing with a "technically" prepaired customer that doesn't have a broad enough knowledge base. And in plumbing terms I am in that category.

    As ironic as it sounds your latest reply could be your best so far And could also answer DCTECH2's simiar q.

    Sooo at the risk of further irking you is your reply for real as in can it really work?

    My well is 300" deep and my "plumbing master wannabe" title tells me that as long as the submersable pumps check valve doesn't leak down (i.e. the water column in the pipe drops to 100+') a manual pump could work.

    See:

    http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=100200780&storeId=10051&l angId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=1002007 80

    The spec states shallow well 25' or less.


    Even a big one here:

    http://www.amazon.com/Flojak-100-Foot-Hand-Well/dp/B005JSFMZ6

    Specs in the 100' range.


    But loose the existing water column and there isn't any type of manual pump that can do the job?

    Such were my suspicions early in my quest. Or is there another type of manual pump available for deep water wells?

    So as requested should you or another answer I'll just read but no longer reply.

    Unique messageboard culture you have here.

    John K. Bullock
    EarlyTrekker's Avatar
    EarlyTrekker Posts: 14, Reputation: 0
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    #13

    Jul 11, 2012, 04:25 PM
    Replied inline:

    Quote Originally Posted by hkstroud View Post
    <snip> Or is it an academic exercise in disaster preparedness for the nuclear winter.
    Not academic. I have a partial solution in place see my eariler posts. Nope, last time it researched it a nuclear winter won't be survivable no matter how much water you have on hand. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by hkstroud View Post
    Exactly what is you objective? Just how much water do you think you should have available at all times.

    Objective? To weather in place some type ot natural disaster. Looking at my normal on hand resources water would be the 1st thing that would run short. The more the better, I have a well full, its just getting to it that posed the problem. ;) A couple of two week outages have occurred at my location before I lived here.

    <snip understood generator outline>

    <snip flow through? Secondary holding tank for brevity, discussion immediately follows>

    Sounds good. An idea that had completely escaped me. Compressor already on hand. Preplanning layout and procurement begins!

    Sorry I couldn't more eloquently present my question in the first place and that it took a lap around the barn to get here.

    Question answered.


    Sincerely,

    John K. Bullock
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #14

    Jul 12, 2012, 09:19 AM
    Unique messageboard culture you have here.
    Gee thanks John. That's what makes our guys the best. I think we've run out of solutions for you so this thread will be closed out. Have a great day, Tom
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #15

    Jul 12, 2012, 10:54 AM
    Early, can I take a wild guess that you are a computer guy? Just curious.

    Unless I'm wrong, a pitcher pump won't work past 30 feet.

    This (Amazon.com: Flojak 100- Foot Hand Well Pump Kit: Home Improvement) is not a pitcher (hand) pump. It is hand operated, but a different design. I would think it would take the Incredible Hulk to get 10 gpm with it from 100 feet down.

    Oh well. It's been interesting.

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