I noticed that Milo Dolezal recommended lowering a clean out plug below the surface to prevent damage. I did that in April 2007, covered the clean out with a metal dish so I could find easily, and covered with sod. I sold the house in May 2008. In April 2010 a sink hole developed in the new owners yard at the water meter and clean out. They paid a plumber $17,000+ to repair a leak at the water meter and replace about 15 feet of sewer line between the house and Y-connector at city sewer. Now they are threatening to file a lawsuit if I don't pay half of the bill. They are claiming that I should not have covered the clean out and because the clean out was covered it could not be inspected at time of purchase which would have revealed the problem prior to purchase of the house. Basically, they are saying that the problem existed in 2008 and that I disguised the problem. The house is about 10 years and neither of us ever experienced water or sewer problems even after the sink hole appeared. Additionally, I have gotten estimates from reputable plumbers indicating that the repairs should have cost $3000 to $3500. I need some help please.

My code mandates the all cleanouts be brought to grade. If the boss on the cover's a concers we install a recessed clean out cover, (see image).
17 grand to repair a leak in the water service? Outrageous! And why replace the sewer foir a leak in the water line?
Open up the clean out to lookdown into the sewer line to detect a water service leak? Does anybody else realize how ridiculous that sounds?
They're saying it leaked for two years before it was discovered? Good luck in getting any one to believe that.
A sharp plumber could blow holes in their complaint. Hire one for a wittiness and after their lawsuit has been dismissed counter sue for a frivolous lawsuit.
Bottom line! The new owners got royally ripped by a unscrupulous plumber and want you to ease their pain by eating half of it.
Don't fall for it. Please keep me in the loop. I want to know the outcome.
Good luck, Tom

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Tom, Thanks for your response it provides some needed clarity. For one, I paid less for all of the plumbing in my new house, including digging the well and installing the septic and all of the materials, than they paid for this repair.

I need to clarify a couple of items.

First, I left the cleanout high enough that there was a slight mound that could be seen in the sod. I understand that covering the cleanout may not have been to code but would it have contributed to the problem that occurred 12 feet below ground? And, is it common for cleanouts to be covered?

Second, their plumber suggested that the water leak did not cause the sink hole. Rather, they claim that the sewer was damaged (several cracks as if it had been crushed)before they bought the property and that dirt was gradually falling into the sewer over two plus years until the sink hole formed suddenly. Because the new owner never had sewer problems even after the sink hole, I'm not convinced that the sewer was damaged until they started digging and hit the pipe. Should the plumber have run a snake or a camera before digging to see if the line was damaged?

The invoice states that special equipment was needed to dig the hole because the trench collapsed. I think they used a backhoe without enough reach, the ground was wet, and they got too close to the hole and caved it in resulting in the damage to the pipe. I have a photo showing two backhoes on site. Why? And Why not an excavator with adequate reach? Also, I have photos of a trench box sitting off to the side and a man unprotected down in a 12-foot hole. What is up with that?

And finally, should they have been charged to dig to shut off the city water? Or charged to repair an electric line damaged during the excavation?

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

Vh-123: I am sorry about the problems you are having with the new Owner.

Questions:

1. What exactly caused the sink hole ?
2. Was the cause of under ground leak Water main breakage ?
3. Do you have pictures of DVD from video inspection ?
4. Was there 2nd and 3rd opinion by another licensed plumber to confirm the analysis of the first plumber ?
5. How far is the main house from the curb ?

New Owner should have call you when the problem occurred and give you the opportunity to correct the "problem". You should also be there while the Video Inspection was being conducted so you can see for yourself what the problem is, if any. It is very convenient to contact you now, after all work was completed, and ask you to share the cost.

Even if the new sewer work developed a leak due to bad workmanship, it would most likely not create a sinkhole with repair costs of $17,000. You would probably not even notice that there was a leak. Location of Clean Out - whether sticking 2" above the ground or 2" below the grade - has nothing to do with it.

Clean outs below the grade with cover over them are up to UPC (Section 406, paragraph "F" ), provided you put cover plate over them. Your "metal plate" you've installed acts as a cover plate. Of course, the vertical pipe still has to have sealed plug on top of it.

Sewer drains by gravity. Even you would have large break in the sewer pipe, earth would be able to absorb the sewage w/o problem. Sewage drains slowly and flows even over possible cracks in the pipe. Remember, how septic systems and leach fields work. They drain into your front / back yard.

Sink holes usually happen with pressurized leaks, like water main pipe leaking under ground. You write there was "..a leak at the water meter...". Reading details in your second post, I suspect that the sink hole was caused by a leak in pressurized water main. Furthermore, I suspect the plumber came, noticed there was a new clean out close by and used it to create more work for himself worth $17,000. I highly doubt that clean out had anything to do with the sink hole. I would question the integrity of the attending plumber.

Moreover, they should not charge you for breaking electrical line or even shutting off main water. In my area, we have "1-800-DIG ALERT" system that every contractor has to call before they excavate. Otherwise, contractor is FULLY responsible for repair to any underground utilities they damage. See if you have such a service in your area...

Our Code mandates shoring trenches deeper then 5'.

Not every back hoe operator is skilled enough to excavate sewer lines without breaking them. Are you sure they didn't break your pipes trying to expose existing sewer ?



I fully agree with Tom as stated above: new Owner got lead into doing the work by dishonest plumber. Now, new Owner is trying to use scare tactics and to make you to pay 1/2 of his costs. It seems to me like you are not getting whole story from new Owner...

Talk to the new Owners. They should understand Sewer Clean out plug under ground has most-likely nothing to do with the sink hole. Also, you should find a knowledgeable, licensed, plumber in your area you can trust to help you to challenge the other plumbers' "professional" opinions. I cannot imagine they want to take you to court over it.

Please, let us know how it went. Good luck... Milo

Thanks for the backstop Milo.
Even though cleanouts are brought ton grade over time they get covered by soil over time. There is NO WAY that this had anything to do with the water service leak. I wonder why the new owners didn't notice the increased water bill, And why didm't the new owners challenge the $17,000.00 charge for a simple pronlem?

This is pure speculation on the plumbers part, (let's not forget who hired him) Has it been established what exactly caused then sink hole? Any plumber, worthy of the name , would have checked for a hidden leak. If the plumber the new owners hired is lacking in experience here's how to check for a hidden leak without any digging,
To check to see if you have a hidden leak first shut down everything in the house, no flush, no drinks of water, and if you are on a meter go out and check the little pointer in the gage. It should not move or creep. if it does you have a leak. If you're on a pump then check the pressure gage after the pump builds up to pressure and shuts off. The gage should not fall and the pump come back on. If so then you have a leak
This should have benn the very first thing done by the plumber. So we now know he's not only dishonest but incompetent as well.

Two backhoes? Why?? How deep did they have to dig? If they've uncovered the source of the leak would you care to share what it was?
We'll wait on your photos.
The plumbing company damaged the electric line and "puffed" the bill to include their mistake? Unbelieverable! This company, along with the plumber, should be brought up on charges. At the very least a complaint should be made to The Better Business Bureau.
And by the way. Has anyone check with The Better Business Bureau tom see how many complaints this company, or the plumber, has against them?
Then new owners have been victimnized by a dishonest plumbing company and seek to make you the victim also. Don't let them!
Keep us informed, Tom

You gavce me a red (disagree) for agreeing with you and trying to help? Goes to show! No good deed goes unpunished.