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    mil44250's Avatar
    mil44250 Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Oct 26, 2008, 05:41 PM
    Running Hot Water-Banging pipes
    My house is 4 years old. We moved in 2 years ago. There was no baning at that time. About 1 year ago, the house developed 2 banging sounds at different spots.
    1. When I runn my up stairs shower/bath/sink hot water a get a loud and consistent banging sound from the wall.

    2. When I run the Kitchen faucet or dishwasher (both are connected under the sink at the same spot) a get the same type of banging/popping sound from the floor area.


    I have shut off the water and bled both Hot and Cold lines in the basement 2 times. I do not have access to the lines in the basement (they are in finished walls). I have also turned the angle stops down to reduce pressure but it does not help

    Question 1: Am I correct this is not water hammer because it happens when the water is running? (so installing water arrestors will not help)

    Question 2: Is it possbile the single handle faucets could actually be causing some sort of water hammer when it calls for hot water?

    Question 3: Is this caused by vibrating water lines? Is there any way to quiet these pipes:mad:


    Should I be calling a plumber?
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,378, Reputation: 2280
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    #2

    Oct 26, 2008, 07:19 PM

    Let me first mention that by throttling down a stop you do not lower the pressure, you just lower the volume. Goning to sound like a silly question but how many bangs are you hearing and is it when the water is running or just whenyou shut it off. Water hammer is one bang when you shut off.
    mil44250's Avatar
    mil44250 Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Oct 27, 2008, 08:40 PM
    The banging is numerous, that's why I don't believe that it is water hammer. It only occurs when water running, not stopped. The banging starts after about 15 sec of hot water is running and continues every 5-10 seconds until water is shut off.
    afaroo's Avatar
    afaroo Posts: 4,006, Reputation: 251
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    #4

    Oct 27, 2008, 09:43 PM

    Is your water heater electric or gas, and when was the last time that you flushed your water heater?

    Thanks.
    John
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,378, Reputation: 2280
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    #5

    Oct 28, 2008, 06:54 PM

    I think you may have a washer that is loose and starts flapping once hot water passes over it and softens it. You are right, not hammer. Since I can see into your walls you must be the detective and search for the vibration with your hands on the pipes. Try to hold every hot valve you can reach starting with the shower mixer, We will continue to help when we can but for now its up to you.
    ShowerGuru's Avatar
    ShowerGuru Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #6

    Oct 31, 2008, 07:06 AM

    Definitely Air Hammering. You have trapped air in your system somewhere due to the way that the pipes were installed. Arresters probably will not help, since you didn't have the problem originally. You have at least 2 'high' spots in the piping where you are trapping air. Trouble is, the way sound & vibration carries, it may be hard to pinpoint the exact spots. If you could find them, arresters added at those spots will cure it.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #7

    Oct 31, 2008, 07:50 AM
    Definitely Air Hammering. You have trapped air in your system somewhere due to the way that the pipes were installed. Arresters probably will not help, since you didn't have the problem originally
    I disagree!! Water/air hammer is usually recognized by a banging or thumping in water lines. The noise occurs when the flow of moving water is instantaneously stopped by a closing valve. This sudden stop results in a pressure spike behind the valve which acts like a tiny explosion inside the pipe. This pressure spike will reverberate throughout the plumbing system, rattling and shaking pipes, until it is absorbed. Air chembers/ shock arresters are installed in the water system to absorb the hammer. For air in the line all you have to do is open the highest faucet and bleed it off.
    Sorry Shower guru but when you're wrong you're wrong! Regards, Tom
    afaroo's Avatar
    afaroo Posts: 4,006, Reputation: 251
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    #8

    Oct 31, 2008, 08:55 AM

    Tom,

    I agree with and have stated very well, Thanks.

    Mil44250

    Do as Bob (ballengeb1) says in his post #5, Good Luck.

    Regards,
    John
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,378, Reputation: 2280
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    #9

    Nov 1, 2008, 02:12 PM

    Tom describes water hammer to the Tee, tright on the money. That's why they don't call it air hammer. Moving water in a pipe actually has momentum and a quickly closing valve literally slams that momentum off.
    dschroth1's Avatar
    dschroth1 Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Dec 3, 2008, 11:23 AM

    make sure the value on toilet is open ALL the way my pipes sounded like air and it was this
    makirichi's Avatar
    makirichi Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #11

    Jan 8, 2009, 11:27 PM

    your pipe is rubbing against the 2x4 due to the expend\retract effect of the hot water.
    release this tension and voilą !

    find the pipe by using your chick (temperature)cut litle piece of drywall(12 in. q) were is the noise ,spray dry lub or put plastic shim but anyway you must to release the tension pipe\wood when water's hot. Good luck !
    ShowerGuru's Avatar
    ShowerGuru Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Jan 15, 2009, 06:57 AM

    "Air" hammering has nothing to do with water temperature. I assume that you have an older home? If so, air hammer arrestors will not fix the problem (in my experience). I suspect that the problem was always there, just not noticeable until the piping/clamps have worked themselves loose inside the walls. You will need to open the walls in the areas of the noise to repair.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #13

    Jan 15, 2009, 07:18 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ShowerGuru View Post
    "Air" hammering has nothing to do with water temperature. I assume that you have an older home? If so, air hammer arrestors will not fix the problem (in my experience). I suspect that the problem was always there, just not noticeable until the piping/clamps have worked themselves loose inside the walls. You will need to open the walls in the areas of the noise to repair.
    Guru, Did you miss my earlier post when you said.
    Definitely Air Hammering. You have trapped air in your system somewhere due to the way that the pipes were installed. Arresters probably will not help, since you didn't have the problem originally
    and I answered.
    I disagree! Water hammer.(there's no such thing as ":Air hammer". Air will compress, water won't. Figure it out! ) is usually recognized by a banging or thumping in water lines. The noise occurs when the flow of moving water is instantaneously stopped by a closing valve. This sudden stop results in a pressure spike behind the valve which acts like a tiny explosion inside the pipe. This pressure spike will reverberate throughout the plumbing system, rattling and shaking pipes, until it is absorbed. Air chembers/ shock arresters are installed in the water system to absorb the hammer. For air in the line all you have to do is open the highest faucet and bleed it off.
    Sorry Shower guru but when you're wrong you're wrong! Regards, Tom
    ShowerGuru's Avatar
    ShowerGuru Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Jan 15, 2009, 08:21 AM

    Speedball, I didn't miss a thing, nor was either response wrong. Enjoy the following quote from a previous expert on here (ps: search your local plumbing houses and you will find "Air Hammer Arresters" for sale. There is a reason for that.):

    Is your plumbing system making odd noises? That sound may be air hammer, but then again, there are other things that create noise in water pipes. Air in the pipes can cause them to make sounds which are easily confused with water hammer. In a few cases I have dealt with, the thumping turned out to be loose pipes striking each other. What I will attempt to do in this tutorial is take you through a few steps to determine the source of the sound and then suggest some remedies. I will start with the easy fixes (that are, unfortunately, less likely to work) and then move on to tougher ones (which are more likely to work.)

    Many years ago I was called in to consult on a large high school irrigation system that was having air hammer problems. The air hammer was literally blowing apart the system. Two guys were working full time just repairing the pipe breaks! They had tried for months to fix it and numerous plumbers had checked it out. They had spent hundreds of dollars on adding additional equipment which was supposed to cure the problem, such as air vents, and a "huge water hammer arrester". But the problem continued. We looked at the original plans for the system and the problem was almost immediately obvious. The water was flowing through the system backwards! Apparently someone decided to move the well location from one end of the property to the other. They didn't bother to redesign the sprinkler system, they just ran the water through it from the other direction. Unfortunately, that meant the water started in the smallest pipe in the system. I suggested they add a second pipe next to the small one that was restricting the flow. They did, problem solved, no more air hammer! They could have saved thousands of dollars in repair work and unneeded equipment. The moral of the story is always look for the source of the problem before you try to fix it.

    End quote...
    ShowerGuru's Avatar
    ShowerGuru Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #15

    Jan 15, 2009, 08:24 AM

    What is Water Hammer?

    Some good training info for your future use as well, Speedball.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #16

    Jan 15, 2009, 09:46 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ShowerGuru View Post
    What is Water Hammer?

    Some good training info for your future use as well, Speedball.
    Thankd for the lessom on "water hammer" However Google doesn't recognize "Air Hammer". Perhaps you can educate me farther and pull up a description off the internet, (not your own) and print it out for me. It sure is a pleasure to have you on this page so you can correct the rest of us. Gee! And here I always thought that since air will compress and water will not that air hammer is impossible. True, excessive air pressure can blow a fitting apart at the joint and can rattle pipes but that's not the same as a hammer affect. Our air chambers are in use because air will compress and absorb the shock of the non-compressable water. A little physics lesson for you. No charge! Cheers Tom
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,832, Reputation: 1212
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    #17

    Jan 15, 2009, 11:30 AM
    Hi all...

    Showerguru: Please bear with me and read entire post.

    Air hammer arrestors were initially designed to act as shock absorbers much like the old air chambers that we used to make of an 18" piece of copper pipe and a cap, and they were given the name AIR HAMMER ARRESTORS to reflect the fact that it is supposed to act as the air chamber, but without having to drain the system in the future as we had to do with the older style air chamber.

    These air chambers acted to absorb shock created by a "pressure or shock wave that travels faster than the speed of sound through the pipes, brought on by a sudden stop in the velocity of the water, or a change in the direction. It's also been described as a rumbling, shaking vibration in the pipes"... I quoted that from your link shower guru... ;)

    That link goes on to say that "You might hear water hammer when the clothes washer stops filling, the sprinkler system shuts off or shifts to another zone, when the dishwasher changes wash cycles, or when a faucet is turned off suddenly. It exerts very great instantaneous pressures that can reach excesses of 1000 psi and over time can potentially damage the system by weakening joints and valves causing leaks or even ruptures in the pipes"... So far nothing about air hammer??

    Also from that page you posted:

    Several factors can contribute to water hammer such as:
    • Improperly sized piping in relation to water flow velocity
    • High water pressure with no pressure-reducing valve
    • Straight runs that are too long without bends;
    • Poor strapping of piping system to structure
    • No dampening system in place to reduce or absorb shockwaves
    I think it is the improperly sized piping in relation to water flow velocity that was causing the WATER HAMMER in your last example at post #15... how about you?

    Like Tom said, see if you can find anything on air hammer that explains this phenomenon... always willing to learn when someone can show us FACTS!

    Let us know...

    MARK

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