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    coolgirl_2008's Avatar
    coolgirl_2008 Posts: 8, Reputation: 3
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    #1

    Jul 13, 2008, 01:45 AM
    Statutory rape in Canada
    Hi, I am 15 and my boyfriend is 31. Age difference does not play a factor between me and him but we are worried about the law. I will be 16 in a couple days and I want to know if once I turn 16 we are able to be together legally without statutory rape as a possibility. So I would really appreciate an answer really quickly without being judged. Can a 16 year old and a 31 year old be together legally. This is in alberta, canada.
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    coolgirl_2008 Posts: 8, Reputation: 3
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    #2

    Jul 13, 2008, 03:13 AM
    Thank you very much Nestorian for your wise advice. I do not mind answering your question at all. The reason I chose him is because he was a friend first. I had trust issues my whole life due to child hood trauma and when I met him everything finally looked up in my life. He treated me the way I should be treated and we really got to know each other. I know about his past and his hard upbringing and his bad past relationships and it seems as if we were the ones who could help each other. I could help him fill in the blanks he had in his life due to his bad upbringing and past relationships and he could fill in the blanks I had due to my childhood. We really complete one another and we are always there for each other. We have went through fire and back to be together and we faced so many obstacles that we fought to overcome that it proved to be worth it. I never thought I would fall in love so young but I matured very fast and I did fall in love and he is everything to me. I love him so much and I know he feels the same. He treats me right and for the first time in a very long time I trust someone completely. This is my first relationship and I think I am in it for the long haul. Going on 9 months we were playing with fire but we know now that it was well worth it.. also I found out that the age of sexual consent in canada is 16 and after that you can have sex with anyone legally. After 14 you can have sex with someone up to five years older but after 16 you can have any age.. so a 16 year old could have sex with a 54 year old for instance and it would be legal. Thank you for your help and I hope you find my reasoning interesting. I hope you do not judge either me or him though.
    danielnoahsmommy's Avatar
    danielnoahsmommy Posts: 2,506, Reputation: 297
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    #3

    Jul 13, 2008, 03:20 AM
    You relationship may be a great one but I have a question. Do you see there may be a problem with a man over 30 having a relationship with a 15 yr old. Why is he unable to have a relationship with a woman his own age. Can he relate to a woman and not a child (sorry, but you are one). I would just be a little concerned with his emotional status. If I were you and were to continue a relationship with him I would always be concrened he would trade up for an even younger model as I aged.
    Nestorian's Avatar
    Nestorian Posts: 978, Reputation: 152
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    #4

    Jul 14, 2008, 10:27 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by coolgirl_2008
    Thankyou very much Nestorian for your wise advice. I do not mind answering your question at all. The reason i chose him is because he was a friend first. I had trust issues my whole life due to child hood trauma and when i met him everything finally looked up in my life. He treated me the way i should be treated and we really got to know each other. i know about his past and his hard upbringing and his bad past relationships and it seems as if we were the ones who could help each other. I could help him fill in the blanks he had in his life due to his bad upbringing and past relationships and he could fill in the blanks i had due to my childhood. We really complete one another and we are always there for each other. we have went through fire and back to be together and we faced so many obstacles that we fought to overcome that it proved to be worth it. i never thought i would fall in love so young but i matured very fast and i did fall in love and he is everything to me. i love him so much and i know he feels the same. he treats me right and for the first time in a very long time i trust someone completely. this is my first relationship and i think i am in it for the long haul. going on 9 months we were playing with fire but we know now that it was well worth it.. also i found out that the age of sexual consent in canada is 16 and after that you can have sex with anyone legally. after 14 you can have sex with someone up to five years older but after 16 you can have any age.. so a 16 year old could have sex with a 54 year old for instance and it would be legal. thankyou for your help and i hope you find my reasoning interesting. I hope you do not judge either me or him though.
    You say there is a disturbing past for both of you? May I ask about that? Feel free to tell me no. I only ask, because I am a beginning Psychologist, and your past seems directly linked to your behavoir, and his as well. Major influence, and there are more I'll ask about as well, if you don't mind of course, such as what you eat, how you think, your physical build, mental build, and really what you believe.

    I am not here to Judge you, if you feel I am being judgemental do tell me at any time. Any way, take care of yourself, and be mindful.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #5

    Jul 14, 2008, 10:49 AM
    I suggest you review the law some more. The way I read it, if you are under 18 and your partner is more than 5 years older, then it would statutory rape. Even if the partner is within 5 years but is in a position of trust or authority, it would be considered statutory rape.

    It is clear that the intent of the recent amendment to Canadian law was to prevent adults form exploiting minors. And it is very likely that a 31 year old having a relationship with a 15 or 16 yr old would be viewed as exploitve.

    You didn't say how you met him or how long you have been 'together', but I have grave concerns about this. Especially since you are specifically asking about sex. If you were only asking about dating, that would be one thing. But I'm wondering who isa bringing up the sex issue. If he is, that's a huge red flag.

    I also have to wonder where your parents are in this and how do they feel about it.

    I strongly suggest you wait until you are 18 and then see how this relationship goes.
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #6

    Jul 14, 2008, 07:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by hiwiseguy
    ScottGem, you may want to read some more.
    No I don't think so. I looked very closely on this.

    Check out this site:
    Frequently Asked Questions: Age of Consent to Sexual Activity

    In stand by what I wrote.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #7

    Jul 15, 2008, 05:59 PM
    I read last week that they have changed age and the sites are not updated.
    This is closest to updated that I have seen from what they said the updates were.

    Canada's Legal Age of Consent to Sexual Activity (PRB99-3E))
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #8

    Jul 15, 2008, 06:16 PM
    You can use sophistry all you want to obfuscate the issues. The intent of the law makers in amending the law is clear.

    What is also clear is that ANY adult having a sexual relationship with a minor is tainted. Is there a possibility that there is real and true love between these two? Yes the possibility exists. But the PROBABILITY is that the adult is using his position as an adult to exploit the minor. If that is not gthe case, then let them wait until she is 18. If their love is real, then it will last until then. But I will not advocate that an adult and a minor engage in a romantic relationship. Especially one with as large a gap as this one. In my opinion, your attempts to justify such a relationship do not reflect well on you.

    My initial response here was in response to the OP'sseemingly feeling that as soon as she turns 16, she can have sex with this person with impunity. That is not the case. Depending on the current relationship, this adult still runs a significant risk of violating the law.
    smokedetector's Avatar
    smokedetector Posts: 368, Reputation: 56
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    #9

    Jul 15, 2008, 07:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by hiwiseguy
    [minor point: I think that since we are counting years, in fairness we should subtract the same amount from both people. That is to say, if the female is now 16 and the male is now 31, then, if we go back and make her 15, we make the male 30 . . and so on. (it's only one year, but still, if we make her 15 and him 31, you can claim 'my goodness he is over twice her age!' instead of, 'my goodness, he may be twice her age!']

    So with that in mind, at least understand what you are doing conceptually. You've framed the matter merely as a problem about age differences. And then the assumption that 'sex between a person 16 and a person 31 must necessarily be exploitive' is imported -- merely by stating the age difference.

    Then you attempt to cast doubt on anyone who might not agree, when you ask (irrelevantly) if I have a problem with the . . . abstraction you've created: 'all 16 year-old/31 year-old sexual relationships are exploitive' (are problematic). That must be the assumption if you are assuming there to be a problem based on age difference alone.

    Your position appears to be that 'there Must be a problem due to the age differences, and yet, we have nothing from the OP regarding any sort of problem other than a possible legal one -- which she asked about.


    Obviously, the vast age difference DOES matter in the "blind" eyes of the Canadian judicial system, as the link Scott gave says:

    "Bill C-2 provides increased protection against exploitative sexual activity. It creates a new offence against the sexual exploitation of youth under 18 years where the relationship is exploitative of the young person, as evidenced by the nature and circumstances of the relationship, including the age of the young person, the difference in age between the youth and the other person, how the relationship evolved, and the degree of control or influence exercised over the young person.
    Bill C-2 also recognizes that there are other indicators, including:
    * age difference: is the other person much older than the young person"

    So the fact that he is 31 and she is 16 would be looked down upon BY THE COURTS, by their own admission, more than say a 16 and 22 year old. The difference in age DOES matter.

    Can you tell me, please, what your definition of exploitative is? To me, it is when the one person is using the other in a way that benefits him and harms the other. By that definition, the 31 year old WOULD be committing this offense, in my opinion, because he gains from fulfilling his sexual fantasies with 16 year olds, young, innocent (maybe not so innocent by teenage standards, but very inexperienced and naïve, so innocent by adult standards). She would be harmed because he would be using her teenage emotions, hormones, and female tendencies (every girl likes to feel wanted), and after the relationship, she could be emotionally scarred, though that depends on how strong a person she is, as well as other factors.

    Can you give an example of a relationship like this that isn't exploitative, and how it would be defended in court, when 31 year olds are at a COMPLETELY different time in their life, have different goals, etc. Under what circumstances would they have any need/desire for a 16 year old (more worried about which boy in gym is the hottest, when their boobs will start growing, how their mom is making them go to summer school, etc.) when he is worried about how to get to the next level in his career, having another kid or two, and saving for retirement? These are likely things that would be brought up in court when trying to establish whether this was an exploitative relationship, and deserve answers.

    Of course, this is all ignoring if there is more obvious evidence of exploitation, such as when they start having a sexual relationship, he forces her to do things in that regard she isn't comfortable with, or he uses his position to control her, which is yet to be seen.

    Bottom line, she is 16 and with a 31 year old. Whether this is right or wrong is irrelevant, we are talking legality, which includes establishing intent. At 16, she is likely trying to please him at any expense, while (assuming he is on par for maturity for his age) he is telling her what to do, where to go, etc (in regards to sex, assuming she is still a virgin) and is telling her how to act (if he introduces her to the parents, friends, or takes her out in public). Of course there is the possibility that this won't end up being an exploitative relationship, but like Scott said, HIGHLY unlikely (actually I think he said possible, but not probable).
    bushg's Avatar
    bushg Posts: 3,433, Reputation: 596
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    #10

    Jul 16, 2008, 05:51 AM
    "You should be fine.

    But if you have anal sex, keep quiet about it. The legal age for consent for anal sex is 18 in Canada."

    Hi wise guy... I'm not going to get into your legal debate... but what in the he! Kind of advice is this to give to a young girl interested in becoming sexually involved with a older man.

    What if this were your daughter, a relative or the child of a friend, would you dole out this type of advice?
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #11

    Jul 16, 2008, 06:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by hiwiseguy
    Again, everyone knows that this is your belief, but the purpose of my posts have been to point out that this is not what the law says at all. As I said earlier, a large difference in age is a marker, not a guilty verdict.
    More sophistry that I am tired of dealing with. I'm just going to respond to this one quote. From this, it would appear that we agree more than disagree. As I said, I was initially responding to the OP's post that once she turned 16 it would be OK for her to have sex with this person. My point was that it was not so clear and that the law could still be used against him. The above quote seems to agree with that.

    As for my posts on this matter. I stand by what I've said. I have no problem with people reading our posts and deciding for themselves who is more correct here.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #12

    Jul 16, 2008, 06:30 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by hiwiseguy
    And this is what I am stating with full certainty that is wrong with what you are both saying. Neither of you are drawing from any matters of fact in this particular relationship other than the age difference. You've (apparently) concocted your own fantasy where you happen to know the sexual subjectivity of this particular male. There is no basis for the fantasy nonsense other than your own experience. We surely don't find it in the record provided by the OP. Where are you fabricators getting your materials?
    Maybe you don't have an understanding about how a site like this works. Someone posts a question and we try to answer it based on our knowledge and the facts supplied by the OP. Very often those facts are scanty.

    No one has stated an absolute here. No one has said that if she has sex with this guy that he is definitely going to jail. But the possibility does exist and, In my opinion, its not a remote possibility. Also In my opinion, to try to minimize this possibility is to promote a relationship that many would think is unhealthy.

    So it would seem that all your voluminous postings boil down to one thing. You don't feel the OP has provided enough facts for us to say one way or another that they will be breaking the law if they have sex when she turns 16. I wouldn't disagree with that. But I do believe that we have enough reason to be concerned about this relationship and to advise against it.
    smokedetector's Avatar
    smokedetector Posts: 368, Reputation: 56
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    #13

    Jul 16, 2008, 08:10 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by hiwiseguy
    No one said a great age difference DOES NOT matter. Do you imagine yourself to be responding to something I said? If so, perhaps you could provide a simple citation.
    I was merely pointing out that the number of years will be taken into account. I wasn't saying that you denied it having any bearing at all. I realize you understand that age is important in determining what part of the law to apply (for instance, whether this situation would fall under peer sex or otherwise), but you seem to think it stops there, when in fact they do take into account how MUCH older he is, not just the numerical age, if that makes sense.


    I believe it must be close to yours, but if it helps; a person is exploited when they are made to do something they don't really want to do, for the general purpose of someone else's benefit.

    [But one must be careful, under this definition, most sex could be characterized as exploitative.. . Especially when coupled (scottgem style) with what we often read and hear about in the media about all the women who do not achieve satisfaction with their male partners.]

    Given the situation, it will be hard to prove that a 31 year old did not influence a 16 year old into wanting sex. I'm not making assumptions about their relationship here, but this is something that will come up if taken to court for whatever reason. A 31 year old is, presumably, used to having sex, has had sex before, etc. Not knowing whether the OP is a virgin or not, and regardless of that even (except in the case, which again, it is not clear, that she were used to having sex since she was 13, did it all the time, etc), it is assumed that she either has never had sex or hasn't had sex more than a few times. The 31 year old could very easily be made out to have influenced her.

    And this is what I am stating with full certainty that is wrong with what you are both saying. Neither of you are drawing from any matters of fact in this particular relationship other than the age difference. You've (apparently) concocted your own fantasy where you happen to know the sexual subjectivity of this particular male. There is no basis for the fantasy nonsense other than your own experience. We surely don't find it in the record provided by the OP. Where are you fabricators getting your materials?
    We as readers/responders have no other info that what is given by the OP, and consequently have to make inferences based on our take on the situation, and give advice based on this. The OP is free to ignore/disregard any advice that is given that doesn't fit the situation, and is also free to post clarifying topics. For instance, if she is absolutely certain that they can defend his intent in court as something not exploitative, then this whole argument could be irrelevant. However, if she is not sure, this opinion is valuable if only to point out things that they will have to defend if it ever comes to it.

    Again, this is all your own fantasy. Legal decisions that bear on the real lives of real people are not decided based upon the fantasy constructions of you two. Everything you list above could be said (in the general) of any peer to peer sexual relationship, and yet the case where the vulnerable 14 year-old girl gets it on with the 15 year-old football stud in order to feel wanted and more popular fits your exploitive fantasy, but it is no longer illegal.
    Correct. Between a 15 and 16 year old, even if it is exploitative, is no longer illegal. But that is not the situation here, and it is not within our power to change what I, and perhaps you, see as an oversight in Canadian law (in regard to the example situation you described). However within the boundaries of the situation at hand, and given only what information we have, it COULD be illegal, and in all likelihood is, though as has been stated many times, isn't necessarily so. She is asking if it is illegal, and given the situation, the answer is it COULD be. Most 16 year olds, including me back in the day, could not tell, or wouldn't see, if a 31 year old was exploiting them. I testified at my former debate coach's hearing (who was ironically, 31), for this very thing, which none of us saw, though 3 of us were being exploited. It wasn't until he was caught that we all saw what was going on, and we all had to deal with it. I'm not saying this guy she is in a relationship with is a child predator bent on finding young girls he can seduce. For my debate coach, it was something he'd never done before, never really had an interest in doing, but once he was in that situation where he could and it was so easy and us so vulnerable, he took the opportunity. Before you say something about it, I do know that not all guys are like him. Regardless, I stand by my argument that it could, and likely is, an exploitative relationship, whether she thinks so or not, and I think I've given enough of a disclaimer previously by stating that is isn't necessarily so, so we can operate on the assumption that there is a possibility of both scenarios from now on)


    Again, this is an example of guilty before proven innocent. You assume the harm based on your belief that it must be harmful. This is not what the law is about. The court needs to establish precisely what you two goons assume.

    {uncalled for comment removed-<>}
    That is what I am trying to bring to light. The court needs to establish this, and they will try by asking many of the questions I have posed. Now if you would, please answer my questions:


    Can you give an example of a relationship like this that isn't exploitative, and how it would be defended in court, when 31 year olds are at a COMPLETELY different time in their life, have different goals, etc. Under what circumstances would they have any need/desire for a 16 year old (more worried about which boy in gym is the hottest, when their boobs will start growing, how their mom is making them go to summer school, etc.) when he is worried about how to get to the next level in his career, having another kid or two, and saving for retirement?


    As a side note, when two members post regularly on the site, and have an opinion about the same topic, they often times post on said topic. If you click around, I'm sure you will find that is generally the case with most regular posters. But thanks, I do always like being called cute :D
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    coolgirl_2008 Posts: 8, Reputation: 3
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    #14

    Jul 16, 2008, 03:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottGem
    Maybe you don't have an understanding about how a site like this works. Someone posts a question and we try to answer it based on our knowledge and the facts supplied by the OP. Very often those facts are scanty.

    No one has stated an absolute here. No one has said that if she has sex with this guy that he is definitely going to jail. But the possibility does exist and, IMHO, its not a remote possibility. Also IMHO, to try to minimize this possibility is to promote a relationship that many would think is unhealthy.

    So it would seem that all your voluminous postings boil down to one thing. You don't feel the OP has provided enough facts for us to say one way or another that they will be breaking the law if they have sex when she turns 16. I wouldn't disagree with that. But I do believe that we have enough reason to be concerned about this relationship and to advise against it.
    Thank you for your advice and no I have not done anything with this person and your answers have made me decide against the relaionship. Thank you
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    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #15

    Jul 16, 2008, 05:06 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by smokedetector
    I was merely pointing out that the number of years will be taken into account. I wasn't saying that you denied it having any bearing at all. I realize you understand that age is important in determining what part of the law to apply (for instance, whether this situation would fall under peer sex or otherwise), but you seem to think it stops there, when in fact they do take into account how MUCH older he is, not just the numerical age, if that makes sense.



    This should be moved to a discussion board - the back and forth (and explanation of how this board works - edited above) is certainly way off the legal topic.

    Can it be split and moved?
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #16

    Jul 16, 2008, 05:30 PM
    Closed
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #17

    Jul 17, 2008, 12:25 PM
    Comments on this post hiwiseguy disagrees: Scott claims to have no problem with people reading our posts and deciding for themselves who is more correct -- as long as they remove all my posts. Got to love this place: experts by deletion.

    The decision to delete some of your posts (many of mine were also deleted) was not made by me. Another moderator decided to clean up this thread and it was done after I made that comment. You should check your facts before making false accusations.
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    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #18

    Jul 17, 2008, 12:27 PM
    You can name me Scott, I closed and deleted many posts that were so poor and so incorrect that I believed they could be dangerous for minors reading them getting or believing incorrect info. I will even add I am not sure how many years, I almost never ever delete a post just because they are wrong but just as in the medical section, some items taken incorrectly by minors could lead to serious harm.

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